Caterham R500 Vs 996 GT2 - Nurburgring battle lap2

[MoPho]

[powderbrake]

That guy drove the snot out of that Caterham. He had it hanging out the rear end in several places. it also looked like the Caterham didn't like that high speed bump at 2:14, it caused him to saw the wheel back and forth.

 

Great video

[Croc]

Wow! Rear end hanging out on the Karussel - that is just insane!!! Clipping kerbs all over the place - a big Nurburg no no. That was the ragged edge of driving - very impressive!

[7evin]

I just go this email from Gideon Wigger from Caterham...

("This is a clip of a £40k R500 Vs £100k 996 GT2. Look for 2:13 mins into the vid when the R500 gets some air flat out (150mph). Think the Italian guy driving had a moment!!! " Cheers Gideon)

150 mph getting air borne and a little side ways.... I think would have had a very big smelly moment..... ....

That guy is laying it down.... WOW !!!!

When I grow up I want to drive like that....

Hell who am I kidding I don't think I'll ever grow up....

Edited October 27, 2009 by 7evin

[Kitcat]

7'36" lap is amazing. And he's on full tread tires. Any car that breaks 8' flat is impressive.

 

It also makes you appreciate how narrow the track is-hardly any room to pass, and the Porsche doesn't exactly let him by. The jump is terrifying (bump oversteer?).

Edited October 27, 2009 by Kitcat

[southwind25]

YEEE FRiggin-HA!!!

oh ya gotta love this!

 

but how long would the tires last scrubbing off that way... impressive all the same against some big german machinery

[Hank]

Amazing what people will do without a full rollcage!

[thegoat]

He needs to get rid of that windshield!

 

Outstanding driving.

[MoPho]

Here is the view from the Porsche

 

 

 

 

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[Croc]

Thanks Morgan. That was just as impressive as the first video. The guy driving the Porsche made it look easy yet I know it is anything but. Brilliant stuff.

[scannon]

Compare the R500 in this video to the one with Stig on the Top Gear track posted elsewhere in the video section.

 

I get the impression that the 'Ring driver is catching/correcting the car when the rear steps out where the Stig is deliberately hanging it out and holding it there. Much smoother transitions into and out of the drift. Of course there is much more room on the Top Gear track to recover if something goes wrong.

 

Still, a great demonstration of driving skills from all three drivers.

[MoPho]

The Top Gear video is really combined footage of several laps, the Stig may have been showboating for the camera during the footage they used and not necessarily going for the best time. TG track is also tighter with lower speeds, so the approach can be different

[escondidoron]

The ability to memorize the 'Ring is quite challenging. On top of that the changes in surface due to variable weather conditions add a serious degree of difficulty to the drive even if you have enough laps to know where the track is going around that next corner.

 

There are some pretty cool bits in the video:

 

At about 1:50 in the video, getting airborne at Flugplatz is classic (Flugplatz = fly place). Very nice recovery too. A little later, up around 2:13, there is another little airborne moment. The real culprit there is not so much the crest of the hill as it is basic front end lift at speed. I found the Caterham Acadmey that I've driven there to be quite a handfull along that pretty much level and straight flat out section of the track. Even the Academy with it's 1600 K series would pull redline in 6th there. The steering got very light. Passing or being passed in that situation required full attention!

 

Possibly the fastest section of the lap is at about 2:41, at the bottom of the valley between Aremberg and Adenauer Forrest. There is a little left hand kink just at the bottom of the hill. You are flat in top gear there and need to keep the inside line. If you run out of room there it would be a very bad day.

 

The pass on the downhill and subsequent x-up / recovery at Wehrseifen (about 3:50), just before Ex Muhle is way cool. That hairpin can be exciting. You are going downhill and all you can see at the entry is an Armco barrier directly in front of you. Pretty intimidating.

 

The downhill left-left-right combination at ExMuhle is another difficult section. There are always big crowds there because of the good access and vantage along the hillside, proximity to the town of Adenauer and because this section is very difficult with resulting passing and crossed-up excitement. This section is really three turns, downhill left, downhill left, bottom out and finally uphill right taken together. You have to brake hard, downshift (two gears in this case), turn in (left 1), reduce steering angle, turn in (left 2), ease on the gas, turn right and blast on up the hill. Watch the steering input and front wheel angle at the entry to the initial left hander then note how quickly the back end wants to snap around. This is likely the result of the car's balance being upset a little by the two gear downshift along with the steering input.

 

At about 4:30 there is a third gear right hander. This turn is officially named Bergwerk. Locally it is called Barbecue Bend. This is the turn where Niki Lauda nearly burned to death on the 1st lap of the European GP in 1976 (Note: The last GP run on the Nordschleife was in 1977 due to safety concerns.). It looks like the car is exhibiting a bit of understeer (push) here. It is common for this section of track to be wet or otherwise slippery in the arboreal tunnel.

 

Another thing to note: Either that video camera has some good vibration damping or the Caterham has some seriously great suspension. This is particularly evident at Carrocciola (about 5:40). In the flesh, that caroussel is fantastically rough. It just hammers you and bounces the car full-on the compression stops if you are truly on it (watch the front wheels bouncing up and down). Also, the 2 caroussels are so rough that a car like a Caterham must be set up artificially high to allow adequate ground clearance. If you don't, you run the risk of bottoming the chassis out on the ridge at the edge right hand edge of the concrete and simply sliding off into the Armco on exit. If that is how the car in the video is set up it would contribute to the front end getting light at speed and also possibly to some twitchiness.

 

Another excellent vantage point is at about 6:35. This is Brunnschen. It is a blind entry downhill left, a second downhill left, bottom out, right section. Large crowds gather here. If you carry too much speed or turn in too late to the left hander at the end you will end up in the grass on the outside or into the Armco on the right a little farther on. A great overtaking spot though.

 

Here is a link to another great 'Ring video. It's my favorite. While this one doesn't have any Seven content, it is a really impressive drive. It's Hans Stuck a while back in a BMW M3 GTR. I think that it was practice or qualifying for the 24 hours or something similar. It starts out on the Sudschleife and then goes onto the Nordschleife.

 

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[Kitcat]

Very informative Ron. Were you racing the Academy car, or just running laps for fun? What was the top speed in your underpowered car? What were your times (8'30"-ish??)?How many laps there have you done?

 

Mike

[escondidoron]

Were you racing the Academy car, or just running laps for fun?

 

Definitely just for fun. I've never raced there. Except for some drag racing when I was a kid, I've never raced a car anywhere. I just like to drive the 'Ring. It is a childhood dream come true for me. I try to go there every chance I get. My work takes me to Germany several times a year.

 

What was the top speed in your underpowered car?

 

I wouldn't say the car was underpowered. It just wasn't a monster. You see a lot of Elises and some Sevens there. It is not unusual to see Kent engined Sevens there be quicker (not faster) than the Elises. The Sevens are always among the quickest cars there. They just get eaten up on the longer straights by the bigger and more aero cars. Even with the 1600 K-series engine the Academy would pull redline in top gear. I think that it was about 120-130 mph. I wasn't able to watch the speedo at that speed! It had the aero screen, semi-slicks and a full cage. The front end definitly started getting light at the 5th/6th gear transition.

 

What were your times (8'30"-ish??)?

 

That's funny. Thanks for the compliment. I'm not that fast. Thiss is all for enjoyment. Also, after our first few visits we conciously stopped using a stop watch. I feel that it is too great a risk, for me at least. It seems that at some point, if you keep pushing the envelope you are going to have a shunt. I can't afford it, physically or financially. That said, my fastest times there are in the mid - low 9s. That is with an Alfa 75 Twin Spark that we have there. I possibly could have gone a little faster with the Caterham but I never got a clean lap. It was pretty cold in the morning (about 45 - 50F and then scattered rain throughout the rest of the day. It was totally fun in the wet though. Maybe not that fast, but a real blast.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3676773504_a8e8d21960_b.jpg

Note to Mopho: That is my youngest son in the picture.

 

I have a friend who lives in Germany. We share the Alfa. We bought it in late '07. I put up the initial investment and cost of the improvements (the usual track car stuff: full cage, adjustable suspension, sway bars, chassis stiffeners, bigger brakes, wheels & tires). He takes care of storage, all of the maintenance, insurance, etc. and picks up all of the operating costs. It's a good deal for both of us.

 

How many laps there have you done?

 

I'm not sure exactly. I can remember bits and pieces from almost every one of them. Over the years I think that I may have done somewhere between 75 - 100 laps in total. The most that I have done in a day is 13. In the Alfa. I did 12 in the Caterham. I shared it with a friend. And we also did a few as passengers with our instructor.

 

It is difficult (for me at least) to do more than 25 in a day: Assume that it takes 10 minutes per lap. Add another 2 - 5 to deal with traffic at the entrance / exit (usually more like 10 minutes an a warm claer day). So you can get about 4 laps in an hour. Factor in that you have a co-driver or 2 and the need to eat and also not kill the car (we drive to and from the track). Then there's the usual track closings due to accidents. Add in driver fatigue and it makes it tough to get more than 25 laps in a day.

[escondidoron]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3652/3675902963_399e9bf809_b.jpgYou You see some pretty interesting street cars at the 'Ring. Edited October 30, 2009 by escondidoron
inadvertant double post

[Kitcat]

Thx, you are livin the dream:)!

 

I agree abt timing laps. I am quite content to just try to catch the guy in front of me. Occasionally someone else will tell me what my time was. Like you, I don't want that to be my focus because it mite cause me to attempt something "manly" (stupid).

 

It is interesting to hear that the low-powered se7ens are fairly competitive, I wld have thot the straights wld offset any cornering advantage they enjoyed.

 

Redline in 6th? I can redline my 5 sp in 4th but never made it to redline in 5th (overdrive). I need to find a bigger downhill:). Not sue what speed that wld be but my top speed so far has been just around 112 mph and that felt like 200!

 

Looking forward to my last track day of the year this Sunday, tho in my BMW, rather than the Se7en.

 

Mike

[DeanG]

Does anyone know times on a well driven Westfield 11? Much more aerodynamic than a 7 but much of the same suspension...

[11Budlite]

Does anyone know times on a well driven Westfield 11? Much more aerodynamic than a 7 but much of the same suspension...

 

Dean - I don't have any idea on times, but I think a Westfield 11 would be seriously compromised by the 1275cc motor and the really skinny tires that are typically used. I have seen a Zetec motor in a Westfield 11 which should level the playing field some, but I'm not sure what size tires you could fit under the bodywork. It would be interesting to see what one could do suitably modified! :auto:

[escondidoron]

Dean asked:

Does anyone know times on a well driven Westfield 11?

 

I concur with Budlite's comments on an 11 with the 1275 and skinny tires.

 

There is a show currently running on Discovery HD Theater called GT Racer. The episode before last was at the 'Ring. As for lap times, maybe there are some posted lap times for this racing series somewhere on the web.

 

The featured cars in the one episode that I have seen (at Magny Cours, France) were a small block Cobra, a pair of E-type Jags and an exquisite Morgan. All from the 60's. There is much on-track footage. There are a couple of original (I'm guessing) 11s running in the series and they can be seen in the background. They are suprisingly quick in the corners but down on power compared to the big engined cars.