Which one?

[jeffs]

Last summer I had the fortunate/unfortunate experience of going to Skip Barber open wheel racing school. It was a blast, however it made me realize that my Elise is just too practical. I waffled on the Atom/Caterham decision for a long time, and I've finally decided to go with the Caterham...only which one?

 

I'll be going out to Colorado next month and hope to check out a few in person while out there, but I was hoping that I might be able to get some recommendations before I went.

 

Some info:

If I make it to the track 3-4 days a year, its a good year.

Let's say price isn't a major factor. It is a factor, but everyone values money differently so its tough to judge in a forum.

I will also have a "practical" car, if one considers a jeep practical

My commute to work is relatively short (5-6 mi) over back roads.

 

Some questions:

Are the superlights, lets say the R500, too harsh for the street?

Are the roadsports left wanting when going to the track?

Is there a noticeable difference performance or enjoyment-wise between the r500 and the CSR on the track?

Are there certain must-have options to get (such as LSD)?

Some of the reviews make the sequential shifter sound noisy and annoying for street use, is that true?

 

Any help or feedback you can give is appreciated. Hopefully I will be one of you soon...assuming I stop chasing my tail on which one to get.

[MHKflyer52]

Hello Jeffs and welcome to the forum. First off why wait to see some 7's until you go to Colorado as their are a number of different Caterhams in your local area and they will most likely answer more of your questions as they are an active group of track and street dogs.

Key thing is to find the 7 that fits you and what you want in a car and try to experience the difference of each type to help you make your decision on which one you get.

Have fun and enjoy the search.

Edited February 3, 2012 by MHKflyer52

[The Stig]

That is correct, there are a few of us in NJ already. There is also one for sale in NJ on the forum. As well as the car itself, worth also checking out the posts about registering a seven in NJ. Quite a few active posters on the forum are in NJ.

 

Which one? I have had a couple of Crossflow powered cars that are quick and agile enough for the street, less practical than an Elise (obviously) but a great all round car and can be quick enough on the track in the right spec. I also used to race one in the UK and was up there with the 2.0l Vauxhall motors as setup is as important as power - and much cheaper to get right. LSD is a good idea for any spirited driving but can always be added afterwards.

 

I'll let someone else pitch the more hardcore versions.

 

Welcome.

[The Stig]

Forgot to say also that budget may influence the decision ...

[yellowss7]

Welcome,

 

"Superlights originally were cars that were speced to a certain level performance, and each "option was listed as additional "weight"

 

If I remember correctly, paint was about a 5 pound option (weight not price)

 

The goal was to get to the 300/400/500 horsepower per ton.

 

Orginally it there was the Superlight, the Superlight R and then the R500.

 

The Superlight had 136 hp, the Superlight R had 190, and the R500 had 242 hp.

 

The newer R300, R400 and R500 have significantly upped that as the R500 now has 263 hp.

 

I don't think the superlights are less streetable than the Roadsports. They typically just have less "options as standard. I.E. Weather equipment, heaters etc.

 

As for the R500 vs the CSR, I'm sure Croc will be along shortly to give you his opinion, as he has a CSR. Your other decision will be Series 3 or SV.

It is a matter of fit and comfort more so than performance.

 

Hopefully you will come out to NJMP in June to watch or join in the fun. If you haven't made your choice by then, there will be plenty of models to view.

 

Tom

[scannon]

Welcome aboard jeffs.

 

When you come to Colorado let me know and we can get together and you can check out my Roadsport SV. Not as light as an R500 but more HP and torque. Fun on the track and more comfortable on the street.

 

There is an SV for sale locally, see the classifieds section of the forum.

[Boxologist]

The real decision is what size frame tom buy, the S3(narrow) or the S5(SV/CSR widebody). After that it's ust specifics. Find the far u fit in, than budget out what u can afford.

[wemtd]

I'm an old Jersey boy in exhile: so i can't speak from experience but definitely recommend looking into registration legalities if you plan to drive on the street. As i understand it registration in NJ has become more complicated in recent years and may need to be considered as well.

[rnr]

Fellow Elise owner here - there are at least 3 other folks on here who have the Seven and Elise combo so its actually quite common. This is what I wrote about my seven after I first got it

Driving the Seven is very visceral experience where you can see, feel and hear every mechanical thing on the car. While you are “one with the road” it is a very different experience than what you feel in a Lotus Elise. The Elise is delicate, nimble car and will eagerly follow your every command while the Ultralite is like a raging bull that you have to manhandle into position before you step on the throttle and hold on for dear life. It is very much of a “mans car” where the controls are very heavy and you end up smelling of oil and gasoline after every drive.

A few questions/comments for you:

1) Are you sure you want a Caterham or will any Seven clone do? Prices and spec level will vary widely based on the answer to that question

2) Have you ever sat in or driven a Caterham? They can be extremely tight - I literally could not get my feet under the dash of an R500 and at 6' 1" I'm not the largest guy in the world. I'd suggest you sit in a variety of Sevens to get a feel for what fits you best.

3) Sevens are a whole new level of impracticality compared to the Elise. I daily drive my Elise but take the Seven out only for autox, track and the occasional weekend drive. Factor that in when thinking of how often you will drive it.

4) Sevens are incredibly modifiable which makes it hard to compare cars. Unlike the Elise which is pretty well designed as a one-size-fits-all package, Sevens are infinitely adjustable and all owners make their cars their own.

[blubarisax]

You are welcome to try out my Superlight SV for size. Currently it's at Exoticars USA in Frenchtown, NJ, not too far from you. I'm sure Wil at Exoticars would let you sit in it.

[Croc]

Are the superlights, lets say the R500, too harsh for the street?

 

I don't think so. Ron and Karl cope quiet well. Naturally I am better off because my CSR is more road going with IRS, column stalks for wipers/washer, headlights and indicators, air conditioning and heating vents. I have the space to slot in a stereo but have yet to do it. However, all of our cars can be frustrating as the engines are so powerful that you really cannot touch their extraordinary abilities on the road.

 

Are the roadsports left wanting when going to the track?

 

Not at all. At the June track day last year, there were 2 zetec superlights doing very nicely. Sure I could blow past them with more power but there was not much in it on cornering. Then the suicidal Kitcat demonstrated how a simple Crossflow can humble all of us!

 

Another data point - last year I had a bog standard R300 on road CR500's at Silverstone. Magic little car. I lost out on the huge F1 straights but was competitive in braking and cornering. At NJMP where the straights are shorter then you would be hard pressed to notice the difference.

 

One little known fact - you can get a CSR chassis with any engine spec, including the little roadsport duratec 175 engine package.

 

Is there a noticeable difference performance or enjoyment-wise between the r500 and the CSR on the track?

 

This was my decision in late 2010. Was the CSR worth it over the R500? I went to the UK (business trip excuse!) to test one out and make a decision. The CSR is more like a regular car on the road because the IRS does not allow it to be bumps off line. Point to point on a regular road surface the CSR will win every time over a de dion equipped car with the same engine. now some people will say that it is a loss of character but I dont. I prefer it over my previous de dion SV roadsport.

 

The other data point that convinced me was Caterham UK showing me the video of the CSR 260 at Duxford doing a Top Gear lap of 1.17.1 compared to the R500 at 1.17.9 both on CR500 street tires. Given variations in weather, temp, driver, etc. I would say that is a dead heat in performance terms. The CSR driver looked to do it easily but the R500 footage was made more spectacular by the Top Gear guys so I cannot read too much into that.

 

The real difference between an R500 and CSR is the different standard engine spec. I have the 2.3L Duratec whereas the R500 uses the 2L. Same block but longer stroke for the 2.3 means lower rev limit (7500 vs 8300 I think?) but much more torque. The 2.3L is easier to drive and keep within the power band. The R500 is a screamer and probably a little more difficult to drive fast and keep within the power band.

 

One other thing to consider - the IRS allows a CSR to hop corners and rumble strips at a track without unsettling the car. This does extend your racing line width on a track. I have heard anecdotally from some that the de dion rear suspension does not like kerbing on tracks.

 

Are there certain must-have options to get (such as LSD)?

 

Now this is where you will get a lot of opinions. After 3 sevens you would think I have got my perfect seven but no, there are aspects I could improve. My highly individual view:

- Dont think about the 5 speed box despite some UK CSR owners recommending them over the 6 speed. The Caterham 6 speed box is very good unless you want a sequential.

- Definitely get the LSD and fit a catch tank. Mine decided to breathe heavy at NJMP on my first track day and the level was checked before as perfect.

- Definitely get the FIA roll bar with diagonals -dont get the standard roll bar.

- If you want to track the car then think about getting a aeroscreen to use on the track to save your windscreen. I destroyed my windscreen in first track session at NJMP. They are easy to interchange when you have the optional captive nut brackets installed during the build.

- If you are thinking of one of the Cosworth duratecs or the Caterham R500 spec Duratec with dry sump then fit a proper oil catch tank instead of the washer bottle that they supply. These engines breathe hot oil heavily - all over the pedals and my feet as I discovered.

- Dry sump for track work if you are not looking at R500 or CSR Superlight spec cars.

- Forget the plumbed in fire extinguisher. Just install a good one mounted in the cockpit.

- Try both Tillets and the regular leather seats. I get back pain in a Tillet. Others prefer the tillets.

- High roll bar mount rear brake light.

- Go for 5 or 6 point belts over the standard 4pointers.

- The carbon cam cover from Reverie offers no performance benefit but is just gorgeous to admire.

- If you are getting a CSR 200 or 260 (or higher like mine) then make sure it has the extra race diff struts. Otherwise you will rip your diff out at some point.

- shift lights as the tach is hard to see at full song down the straight.

- mirrors for sevens wink mirror - brilliant visibility.

- think about which diff ratios you want. You can select between a range of them. The CSR diff comes with an extra ratio option (3.41) over the 3 standard R500/Roadsport options (3.36, 3.62, 3.92 I think?).

- the weather kit with sidescreens does extend the driving season in NJ as does a heater (although arguably a CSR with the curvy dash chassis does not need it!).

- if you are going CSR Cosworth 260 then get the "secret sauce kit" for the track...good for another 12 or so horsepower.

 

Some of the reviews make the sequential shifter sound noisy and annoying for street use, is that true?

 

Sequentials are a like it or hate type of thing. I used to hate them when I tried a few in offshore touring car racing. I much prefer the H pattern box and still do today. However, Karl (Blubarisax) has the sadev sequential which is an engineering work of art which while not ideal for the road is manageable in heavy traffic as we both saw last year on a failed Sunday drive. The Caterham sequential is usually the Quaife although I have heard some UK guys are using another sequential box by Elite. If you are only doing 3-4 track days a year then I would say don't bother as they are quite a bit more expensive and more difficult for road use. That said, going up the gears on a track in a sequential is intoxicating.

 

 

When you go out to Denver make sure you allow time to see Skip's car. Not only is his car excellent food for thought on what you can do with an SV Roadsport with a few little engine mods, Skip is a great guy to chat with and learn all things seven. He certainly treated me well when I went through my spec and build process last year plus he knows some brilliant local roads.

 

I recommend you get around and see some of the cars local to you in NJ and just try them on. Karl (Blubarisax) has offerred you to see his SV Superlight which has is very highly spec'ed with a Cosworth Duratec and sadev sequential and this is a car definitely worth looking at for ideas (usually expensive! ) My CSR is currently in downtown Jersey City NJ (in a safe part near the Holland Tunnel) and is the only one you are likely to easily see between here and Denver since they are pretty rare. I had to go to the UK to see one when I was making my buying decision. I am back home tomorrow and will be around this Sunday or next weekend if you want to see it and try it on for size. I will PM my cell number separately.

 

We should talk off line re NJ registration process as this can be challenging to say the least :ack:

Edited February 4, 2012 by Croc
fixing typos

[sdca7]

I went through the same decision process as Croc in 2009, and agree with his assessment of the R500 vs CSR. I chose the R500 myself, but for your purposes would think the CSR might be better. I made my decision based on the weight of the car, the reported difference in the feel of the cars on track (I've never driven a CSR), and the intended use, which is more track than street driving. I'm sure the CSR is just as capable on track, just a different approach. In fact, there are much heavier, higher horsepower cars on here that could probably beat either! I am very happy with the R500, and after about 25 track days I still return to the paddock with a huge grin every time!

 

If I were to buy a seven for street use and occasional track use, I wouldn't worry too much about weight, and would get all the creature comforts. By the time I added a roll cage,safety and fire systems, my car was up to 1175 lbs wet. I think you could outfit a CSR pretty nicely and still be under 1300 lbs. My first superlight had leather seats, and although they may have weighed a few extra pounds, they would be nice for longer trips.

 

As far as the superlight chassis being able to take kerbs/rumble strips, I did have to spend some time getting the suspension dialed in to be able to ride up on the kerbs, but it now eats them without too much complaint!

 

Whichever way you go, you will love your car. Before the R500 I was often comparing my cars to others, and thinking about getting something different. I haven't had that thought in three years, and don't foresee wanting anything else! They will ultimately not be the fastest thing on the track because of their aerodynamics, but I think the light weight and balance of these cars make them more fun to drive than anything I have been in. And I have always loved the way they look!

 

The extra horsepower of the R500 is nice, but if I had it to do over again I might opt for the R400. My previous superlight had much less power and was still a blast to drive. The R300 and R400 seem to be a very nice price point - probably the best bang for your buck.

 

 

Justin

[jeffs]

Wow, thank you for all for the suggestions and for the offers to check out your cars. Croc, I was actually contemplating the trip to the UK for a test drive too

 

I will read up more on the NJ changes, and croc thank you for offering to discuss as well. I read though a number of comments on this last summer and it did sound like a PITA. One upside is that I live fairly close to an official inspection station.

 

When is the NJMP event? Is it open to just 7s? I certainly hope to have made my decision by then, though if building may not have it in hand.

 

Skip, thank you for the offer. I'm going to be out in CO on the 5th, and I'm just figuring out how to sneak away from the mandatory meetings I'm pretty sure I can make it over to CaterhamUSA, but I'm not sure I'll be able to make it up to Erie. I really appreciate the offer though.

 

Thanks rnr. It's funny, I'm used to giving people warnings about the Elise, been a while since I've gotten the "are you sure you want to do this" myself. Am I sure? No, but I think so. I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the the caterham is going to be a lot most like the open wheel car that Skip Barber uses. Certainly less comfortable and less waterproof than the Elise (who ever thought that would be said), but after spending 3 days in that car it made the Elise feel soft and bloated. What I loved most about that car was how recoverable it was, it was so easy to make mid-turn corrections. Watching the videos of the caterhams on the track it appears to have that type of handling. One of the reasons I didn't go with the Atom was too many people warned me that line between tons of grip and a spin is too thin. I like the Elise, and its a decent track car, but its expensive to fix if something goes wrong.

 

Have I considered a clone? I have, and I've been lurking on the boards for quite some time now looking at what was for sale. My preference is not to go with a clone, but if the right one at the right price came along I was going to consider it.

 

Have I sat in one? No. I'm 5'8" so I'm not too worried, but it is one of the reasons for my trip to CaterhamUSA (and maybe a question I'll get answered here locally sooner).

 

Yes, I agree, all the modifications are cool, but very confusing for someone new to all of this.

 

blubarisax, thank you for that offer. I'll give them a call.

 

Thank you for the offer to check out the CSR croc, I will definitely be giving you a call.

 

You know, its funny, I watched both the r500 lap and the csr lap on the top gear track, and I walked away with a little different view. I did walk away believing I would be very happy with a CSR, but that lap by the Stig makes me drool every time. There is just something about being able to overcook it into every corner and with a little flick of the steering wheel recover with no problem. I'm assuming the CSR would do the same thing if pushed to that limit?

 

I will take your advice with the sequential. I liked it on the track when going full throttle, but found it very annoying at slower speeds.

 

When you say aeroscreen, do you mean the wind deflectors? I was considering a full windscreen for street use, but going with the wind deflectors for the track

 

sdca7, can you say a little more about the difference in feel between the csr and r500?

 

Again, thank you all for the help. As sdca7 says, I'm sure I will be happy with any of these cars. Of course I would have been much happier if I made up my mind 6 months ago

[Sabbot]

If you want to try the smaller car for size, my S3 is in Warren, NJ and is still getting out for the occational blat. You are welcome to come and try the fit. I've had drivers as tall as 6' 2" fit, but shoe size to clear the narrow pedal gap can be an issue. As far as daily driver goes, I have mine registered as a regular vehicle in NJ and I use it quite a number of days in spring, summer and fall (until the salt comes). With the full front and side screens and heater (spring and winter) it is remarkably civilized and it makes for a fun shopping car with the occational bag of groceries in the back.

[Kitcat]

I remember a track day w/Lotus club in '10. I let my instructor, an owner of a trickled out track Elise, drive my Caterham. As he approached the 1st turn his narrative went something like this:"So at the 2nd cone you start to squeeze the brakes like this and just as the curbing begins you start to turn: OMG, OMG, what just happened, this thing just turns in instantly, I had no idea, I thought my Elise was responsive, etc.,etc". And this was a base '97 Caterham, Dedion, X-flow, with stock "street" suspension. So, even the most pedestrian, street-friendly Caterham is a track weapon of high order.

[lucky dawg]

Jon at Caterham USA in Denver is a great guy and very helpful. He generally doesn't have completed cars at the shop, so make sure that he has plenty of advance notice about your trip so he can plan to have a car to show you.

 

I recently went through the same process as you, though mine will be more road than track oriented. I finally settled on the CSR Roadsport. It will be nearly as capable at track days and then be much more usable on the road than an R500. Hopefully the best of all worlds.

 

The only downside I have found so far is the wait between placing the order and actually driving the car.

[scannon]

Jeffs,

 

If the weather is decent and the are roads dry I can meet you at Caterham USA for a test ride on March 5th.

 

If you can get to Denver by Saturday the 3rd I am taking the Lotus club to visit one of the worlds top ranked Bugatti and French racing car restorers and then on a blat in the foothills or mountains depending on road conditions.

[speedwagon]

As a sort of outsider (have a superformance s1) would offer two suggestions A- get the IRS rear, that is the biggest fault with mine and B- Buy one of the most popular and do not consider a low volume clone, they made about 50 of mine and that is not enough to get them sorted (POs also dinked with mine) and perhaps most important you can network with the sellers and other owners when you have set-up issues. I have a wonderful car with poor parts access, no factory support, and an odd power plant = fun. "just because your car was built by a professional does not mean that it was built by an expert"

[Croc]

Wow, thank you for all for the suggestions and for the offers to check out your cars. Croc, I was actually contemplating the trip to the UK for a test drive too

 

If you are in the UK then I would recommend a trip to Caterham South. Easy trip on the train to Caterham and the showroom is right next to the station. To tempt you, this is what I found when I went there in 2010.

 

http://www.usa7s.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5772&highlight=silverstone

 

The good thing is you can see all the cars, test drive and understand what you are getting from the different options. Caterham USA does not offer that option.

 

 

When is the NJMP event? Is it open to just 7s? I certainly hope to have made my decision by then, though if building may not have it in hand.

 

It is scheduled for June 25 and 26. The post is linked here:

http://www.usa7s.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7243

 

I am sure we would break the rules to let you run with some sevens. After all the philosophy of an Elise is similar to a seven.

 

 

Have I sat in one? No. I'm 5'8" so I'm not too worried, but it is one of the reasons for my trip to CaterhamUSA (and maybe a question I'll get answered here locally sooner).

The real issue is shoe size in the small pedal box.

 

 

You know, its funny, I watched both the r500 lap and the csr lap on the top gear track, and I walked away with a little different view. I did walk away believing I would be very happy with a CSR, but that lap by the Stig makes me drool every time. There is just something about being able to overcook it into every corner and with a little flick of the steering wheel recover with no problem. I'm assuming the CSR would do the same thing if pushed to that limit?

I find all Caterhams very forgiving compared to regular cars - easy to catch and play with.

 

 

 

When you say aeroscreen, do you mean the wind deflectors? I was considering a full windscreen for street use, but going with the wind deflectors for the track.

 

Just to make sure you are thinking the same thing as me, a wind deflector can be the clear perspex/polycarb deflector mounted on the side of the windscreen.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/mjohnson555/seats/IMG_0127.jpg

 

An aeroscreen (using the UK term) which is what I think you were referring to is the flat carbon/plastic/fiberglass horizontal deflector across the scuttle before the cockpit.

 

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a354/mjohnson555/seats/CSR/October%202011/DSC_1984_edited-1.jpg

 

While I enjoy the aeroscreen it is not the greatest thing on the NJ Turnpike as you do get some stuff kicked up in the face.

[Hank]

Have you ruled out a proper spec'd Westfield? I've got a Megabusa for sale in the classifieds.