Porsche anybody ??

[Klasik-69]

Although this forum is all about the wonderful 7's, a lot of us have other performance cars, some of which are Porsches. So at the risk of discussing an outiside subject, I'll bring up an article that popped up in Autoweek magazine in their September 16th edition. The author, Dutch Mandel reports on the apparent engine weakness in the Porsche 911 and Boxster models which involve an intermediate shaft bearing failure for models built between 2001 and 2005. Following many failures and an aggressive class action lawsuit, Porsche finally agreed there was a problem and have agreed to fix some of these with certain limitations. The major limitation is that the car has to have been in service less than 10 years. Also, the time limitation for filing a claim is October 15th, 2013 (2 weeks from now).

 

Those of you with a 2001 or 2002 model are obviously screwed. Some 2003 models are equally up the proverbial creek without a paddle. Porsche has been anything but cooperative in helping customers, as reported by Autoweek. Since there are a lot of us on this forum who venture on the track or street with other performance automobiles, or who may be looking to buy a Porsche (me), we don't want to buy something that is going to grenade on us, especially an engine as expensive to fix or replace as this one.

 

Following this article, the current issue of Autoweek has a few Porsche owners write in to report how badly Porsche had treated them. One gentleman who purchased a brand new Panamera Turbo S had the car fail a few days after getting the car. The dashboard went blank and the car sits at the dealership waiting on a part which has no number assigned yet. Porsche told him to call back in about 8 weeks to see if there was a part number and/or availability yet. I think that car sells for around $135K. I'd be a little pissed off and would definitely invoke the lemon law which makes the dealer take the car back after 30 days of accumulated loss of use. To be perfectly fair to Porsche, they have not had the opportunity to respond to these claims and as is always the case, there are two side to any issue. Running an engine without oil will result in catastrophic failure. Jump starting a car incorrectly can also kill the electronics which would include the dashboard. However, as Autoweek reported, about 8% of their readers are Porsche owners and need to know what lies ahead.

 

All of this makes my 7 and my Vette just that much better.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Klasik-69

[yellowss7]

Yeah, I have a 2002 911 and I'm aware of the potential issues. :cuss: But I still like it and In the 7 years I've owned it it's been ok. I do have 14,000 miles on it now, though so it's probably almost broken in. :rofl:

 

Tom

[MoBoost]

When I was looking for another car, I learned of this failure mode and it was one of the reasons why I crossed the Boxster off my list. No way did I want to be worried about a $10k repair bill every time I drove the car.

[Klasik-69]

The strange thing about the documented failures are the variance in mileage reported with some as low as 17,500 miles & some in the 80K range. I wonder about how the maintenance level that was performed played on the failure rate. I had heard of $400 oil changes by the dealer & suspect some went to Jiffy Lube instead.....& got their monies worth. Porsche isn't commenting on this so it's hard to tell. Their reputation for quality is second to none but so is German snobbery. I'm not going to consider any 911 between 2001 & 2005 at any price.

[Automoda]

Back in 1996 I brought my '87 Fiero in to the dealer to have them tighten a bolt in the steering column (it steered tight but the column itself floated around in your lap). The standard GM column that the Fiero used was a monkey puzzle that was too tricky for me to disassemble just to get to the bolt (I can do it now). In fact, that car had almost no unique parts at all other than the dash cluster and plastic body parts (which never broke anyhow). The dealer told me that the mechanics refused to work on Fieros. This is a Pontiac dealership... Refusing to work on a dirt common Pontiac product. I swore never to own a Pontiac again.

 

I talked to someone that had a Mini Cooper which had fallen while being offloaded and got drowned in the ocean for a few hours. It was purchased cheap and rehabbed. When the guy went to buy a replacement for some engine part (I dont remember what). Mini would not sell it to him. His VIN number had been black listed and they absolutely refused to sell him the part at any price. I guess they are in business to make money for dealers, period. No dealer, no service.

 

I'm very wary of cars now because I'm convinced that they are designed to make money at the service desk, not the point sale. They have 12 computers stuck in the wiring harness spread throughout the car to ensure that no ordinary guy can figure out what is going on. Further, the computers and even small parts like electric window motors are encoded with serial numbers to "prevent theft".... or more likely prevent you from buying a part from a junk yard and fixing a problem without the dealer. I wonder what happens when more of these car companies fold and you can no longer get your spare parts from a dealer and junk yard parts wont work. And what about when your VW's turbo dies at 16,000 miles and they want 10K to replace it? (On a car that was only double that when bought new) Who's budget can survive that?

 

My cars are all old and use generic, common parts. I'm going to keep it that way. I have zero interest in buying something in a show room right now. My next projects are my 51 Willy's Jeepster and 66 chop-top VW Bug.

[sevenup]

As I recall, the specific example in Dutch's article was a friend of his whose car developed the bearing failure and was just a week or two past the lawyer "negotiated" warranty period and the car had only about 7K miles on it!! This unwarranted screwing of a somewhat exclusive customer base will definitely hurt Porsche....as it should!

[lucky dawg]

This was the first time I can recall Autoweek using a full page editorial to call out a manufacturer. Not a great move by Porsche, unless they think their customers don't talk much with each other.

[Croc]

I suspect Porsche has made a careful calculus of how much it would cost to fix the problem and maintain goodwill versus doing nothing. Right now it is assuming that it will all follow normal PR theories and blow over shortly (3 months or so). Hopefully it does not as it is always good form to keep the bastards honest. Porsche knows they will lose current customers but the way they are going mainstream means that they expect to get new customers that will replace the unhappy as an aspirational brand.

 

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the Porsche approach for this fault with their colleagues at VW and Audi? They are using the same playbook. I had my own issues with a 2010 Audi A4 which required 2 clutches in 3000 miles (first clutch at 500 miles) and it took 1.5 hours and 2 test drives to convince a service manager that there was a warranty issue the first time. Their first reaction is to always say no. This is why I am unlikely to want to dive into having another VAG anytime soon.

 

Luckily Porsche were never on my wish list - learning to drive on a 1971 VW Beetle cured me of the 911 desire for lift off oversteer. :ack:

[Klasik-69]

I suspect Porsche has made a careful calculus of how much it would cost to fix the problem and maintain goodwill versus doing nothing. Right now it is assuming that it will all follow normal PR theories and blow over shortly (3 months or so). Hopefully it does not as it is always good form to keep the bastards honest. Porsche knows they will lose current customers but the way they are going mainstream means that they expect to get new customers that will replace the unhappy as an aspirational brand.

 

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the Porsche approach for this fault with their colleagues at VW and Audi? They are using the same playbook. I had my own issues with a 2010 Audi A4 which required 2 clutches in 3000 miles (first clutch at 500 miles) and it took 1.5 hours and 2 test drives to convince a service manager that there was a warranty issue the first time. Their first reaction is to always say no. This is why I am unlikely to want to dive into having another VAG anytime soon.

 

Luckily Porsche were never on my wish list - learning to drive on a 1971 VW Beetle cured me of the 911 desire for lift off oversteer. :ack:

 

I think you're absolutely correct in the connection with Audi/VW. The small minded BOD of VW is thinking with VW minds when it comes to Porsche, and that may be a big mistake. If I remember correctly, Porsche has one of the highest customer loyalty bases in repeat sales. That means that the guy who owns a 911 likely had one or two before that one and WOULD likely buy another one after this one. If you make him eat that motor, the bad taste left in his mouth will linger long enough to make him shop for another brand. Porsche doesn't sell a lot of cars, they don't have to with the prices they demand. If you lose your customer base, big numbers show up quickly in sales dollars.

 

If Porsche (VW) continues on this mindset of denying fault, they need only look at what happenned to GM when it ignored product failures and thought they were too big to fail. Would Toyota be as big today without the help that GM gave it in the 70's, 80's & 90's.

[WestTexasS2K]

Good deals on Boxsters out there due to bad engines. Renegade hybrids has a conversion kit for Boxsters that puts a cheap reliable Chevy LS engines in that great Chassis. There are a few on the road and owners seem very happy with the power gain and drive experience is retained. A future project on my books.

[Kitcat]

Speaking of disinterest by mfg. Caterham seems to be out of everything. Ditto their supplier, Redline. So my Cat, wh/has been on jack stands for 2+ months, contines to sit awaiting a rear right 1/2 shaft. Word today is: "Give it another month". Caterham is also out of the disc brake size I need, ditto the 13" front wheel size needed. Complete indifference by everyone involved(:.

[JBH]

Just ask me how long I had to wait for simple replacement parts after an early year crash of my Caterham at the track. The holdup? An aluminum radiator. You drive the car, you accept the shortcomings that come with it.

 

Old cars are not more reliable than new cars. In the 60s no one even thought about a transmission or engine that would exceed 100,000 miles. Today, we just expect it despite the fact that the cars are faster, handle better and are much safer than the cars they replace.

 

Every car manufacturer has issues with part reliability and supply. Own a Ferrari and then you will learn to appreciate parts that last longer than 10000 miles. Nobody files class action suits against them because everyone understands performance has a cost (that and the buyer probably has more money than they know what to do with).

 

I think the reasons for the ISB failure are pretty well known and I believe there are aftermarket fixes. If you don't think it's reasonable to put out the money for that fix, then you don't have the correct understanding of the cost relationship associated with high performance cars.

[DeanG]

I think the Porsche problem is really a German problem. It seems that Germans can't believe that they ever produced something that isn't perfect. Hence VW valve seal issues that run from the 1970s through 2000s.

[jeffs]

While I'm glad my days of Porsche ownership are behind me, in some ways I can kinda see their point here. Yes we expect more from the Germans, but 10 years for a performance engine is pretty good. If this were any other manufacturer we wouldn't bat an eye.

 

The worst I saw was Lotus' handing of the oil line failures in the Elise. Nice of them to send a letter telling everyone that at any moment the oil lines could fail and dump oil on your rear tires...no recall at that point, just a letter telling you to drive safe.

[xcarguy]

Good deals on Boxsters out there due to bad engines. Renegade hybrids has a conversion kit for Boxsters that puts a cheap reliable Chevy LS engines in that great Chassis. There are a few on the road and owners seem very happy with the power gain and drive experience is retained. A future project on my books.

 

WestTexasS2K, how about a link for these folks?

[MoBoost]

Yeah, but a poorly designed bearing that when it fails takes out the engine is not a maintenance issue. I'm well aware of the costs associated with performance cars. I'm less tolerant of bad design.

[James A]

i have owned a GT3 and currently own a Cayenne S, Porsche service has always been very responsive and high quality, and friggin expensive! I have owned 5 BMWs and stopped buying them over the awful, arrogant service from that dealer network.

[WestTexasS2K]

Xcarguy. Here is the link. http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

[rss]

Xcarguy. Here is the link. http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

 

WestTexas,

do you have any experience with renagade's products? an LS powered boxster sounds very interesting. so does an LS powered 928 for that matter...

[rss]

i have owned a GT3 and currently own a Cayenne S, Porsche service has always been very responsive and high quality, and friggin expensive! I have owned 5 BMWs and stopped buying them over the awful, arrogant service from that dealer network.

 

james, i had awful service from momentum bmw myself but have been treated very well by advantage mid-town over the last 12 years. that's mostly a reflection of a great SA and mechanic though, both of whom have recently departed, so i'm not very optimistic about what the future holds.