The ubiquitous "What seven should I buy?" thread

[drew8mc]

Hello all,

I have become enamored with the idea of building a Seven. It is quite an irrational obsession as I have never built anything of the sort, only really just started wrenching on my own car, and don't really have the money at the moment. However, I love projects of various types and making things with my hands is something I enjoy. I am an architect by trade, and the Seven design ethos really appeals to the form-follows-function modernist in me. I have always loved cars especially from a design perspective (I'm a huge Alfa Romeo fan). I know that half the answers to this post will tell me to buy a used one and that would seem to make sense, except I feel I would not understand the car fully, which is the reason for building the kit.

 

I have done a fair bit of research on some of the sevens by reading build blogs mostly on this site and others. This gives me a good idea of the work required to complete a project. There are several areas that are quite intimidating such as wiring. The bowl of spaghetti wiring harness seems hopeless for me. I have several questions for those that have built various kits and those who drive these cars.

 

Firstly, I hope to use this mostly as a fun street car. If someday I could take it to a track day event I would love that.

 

The first questions relate to the design of different kits.

1. I am 6'-2" around 200lbs. What kit would you recommend that I would be comfortable in for weekend cruising?

2. I have looked extensively at the Stalkers and I like the suspension setup and the supercharged V6 drivetrain but I know that some purists think this strays too far from the original Seven. Would a Birkin or other kit which uses the Ford 2.0 be a better choice for a street car where top speed is less important?

 

These questions relate to the actual build itself.

1. What kit is the easiest to build? I'm guessing Caterhams are the easiest, but their price just seems out of reach for me in the near term.

2. It is hard to know how much a kit build will cost. Is there a major difference between the Stalker, Birkin, or other kit? I know there are many options to each kit, and Brunton seems to give the best range from upper 20's to low 30's. On the Birkin USA site they explain that you can get a Build Group 1 kit for $5k and then purchase the other build groups later, but that still doesn't include the drivetrain. Does anyone know the total cost comparison? Is this an irrelevant question?

3. What company gives the best support to someone like me who would probably have a ton of questions?

4. I see there are some people who just cannot finish a build and end up selling their half built kit. What is the best way to avoid this? I'm willing to invest the time and by reading the build blogs I'm under no delusions about the length of time it takes to complete one.

5. How do I tell my wife that I want to take up a spot in the garage by an immovable object for 2 years for a car we can't fit the kids in?

 

Wow! I'm sorry this is so long winded, but you folks here are a bottomless pit of information and would value any insight into this world.

Thanks in advance.

Drew

[locost7018]

There was an Alfa powered locost for sale on Locost USA forum but I don't know if it is still available. Your best bet is to get an already assembled and licensed car Taking over an unfinished kit has its problems also. There are several guys in your area that have se7ens. Esko Ala-Nisula lives up in Fitchburg and is a great guy. He might be able to answer some of your questions about building and licensing. He does not get on the forums very much anymore. Pm me for his email. Say hi to my duughter who lives in Boston and my son who goes to WPI!!!! Russ

[Davemk1]

You might also consider a Westfield. I've owned a Birkin (1999 small body) and I'm 6'4" and it was a very tight fit in that car. I built my Westfield about a year ago and I chose it for two reasons - the first is that the longer cockpit fits me perfectly and secondly they offer a version that uses the Honda S2000 engine and trans and it's one of the finest lumps ever made....it really suits the character of a Seven IMHO. The finished product is a ball to drive and very quick.

 

Something to consider.

 

dave

[drew8mc]

You might also consider a Westfield. I've owned a Birkin (1999 small body) and I'm 6'4" and it was a very tight fit in that car. I built my Westfield about a year ago and I chose it for two reasons - the first is that the longer cockpit fits me perfectly and secondly they offer a version that uses the Honda S2000 engine and trans and it's one of the finest lumps ever made....it really suits the character of a Seven IMHO. The finished product is a ball to drive and very quick.

 

Something to consider.

 

dave

 

Thanks Dave. Looked a little at Westfield, and the Honda engines have a great rep. Do you mind sharing the cost of the kit and the overall cost to you? You can PM me if you don't want that public. How was your build experience? How long did it take.

[Croc]

Welcome to the forum Drew!

 

It is quite an irrational obsession.

 

Not at all. You sound like everyone else on this forum and an ideal chap to have a beer with and chat cars.:cheers:

 

The first questions relate to the design of different kits.

1. I am 6'-2" around 200lbs. What kit would you recommend that I would be comfortable in for weekend cruising?

2. I have looked extensively at the Stalkers and I like the suspension setup and the supercharged V6 drivetrain but I know that some purists think this strays too far from the original Seven. Would a Birkin or other kit which uses the Ford 2.0 be a better choice for a street car where top speed is less important?

 

1) I am fatter and shorter and still fit in Caterham's, Birkins, Westfields and even Ultralites so long as those super tight racing shells are not used. I prefer the Caterham SV for touring as it is roomy but Birkin and Stalker have their wide options too now. Even Westfield chassis is roomier than the standard Caterham S3. With the right seat you could be comfy in all.

2) I think Stalkers is a case where if you like the styling then go for it. I prefer the more traditional styling but thats just me but I very much appreciate the ease of getting parts/spares at Napa - something the Stalker beats most others hands down. Also I dont think it is a top speed issue. I suspect my Caterham has a close top speed on track to the V6 Stalker. Its style of driving. The small 4s have a revvier more active style that encourages use of the rev range. The Stalker V6 is a a more torquey style. Both are good in their own ways - but what is your style of driving.

 

These questions relate to the actual build itself.

1. What kit is the easiest to build? I'm guessing Caterhams are the easiest, but their price just seems out of reach for me in the near term.

2. It is hard to know how much a kit build will cost. Is there a major difference between the Stalker, Birkin, or other kit? I know there are many options to each kit, and Brunton seems to give the best range from upper 20's to low 30's. On the Birkin USA site they explain that you can get a Build Group 1 kit for $5k and then purchase the other build groups later, but that still doesn't include the drivetrain. Does anyone know the total cost comparison? Is this an irrelevant question?

3. What company gives the best support to someone like me who would probably have a ton of questions?

4. I see there are some people who just cannot finish a build and end up selling their half built kit. What is the best way to avoid this? I'm willing to invest the time and by reading the build blogs I'm under no delusions about the length of time it takes to complete one.

 

 

There are levels of kit build:

1) Fully complete - only Brunton offers this level of finish by the manufacturer. Even Caterham requires you to find an affiliate assembler to put your car together.

2) Roller - no engine or trans but car is assembled with wiring ready to install engine. Put Caterham in this box. and I believe Brunton and Birkin can organize a build experience from this level too.

3) Kit - Varying levels of pre-assembled bits requiring further assembly. Brunton and Birkin can tailor their kit experience through a staging process. Westfields in a fairly comprehensive kit process. Caterhams can also still be built as kits.

4) Raw materials - Locost type of build.

 

 

Cost is so difficult to compare that people dont because of the radically varying assumptions. You would have to do that analysis yourself. I did it when shopping in 2008 - not hard but the devil is in the small print as to what the kit includes or does not include. I bet Caterham is the most expensive by a factor of 2 though.

 

If you go back some ways I would have said Caterham may have provided best support. Thats not the case now when I cannot even get the current CA based USA agents to return multiple phone calls. Your best support for Caterham will come through Beachman Racing. Beyond Caterham, today based on my dealings, I would say it is probably Brunton with its Stalker and Birkin - knowledgeable friendly people who are a pleasure to deal with. I cannot comment on Westfield - Davemk1 would be best placed to comment here.

 

 

5. How do I tell my wife that I want to take up a spot in the garage by an immovable object for 2 years for a car we can't fit the kids in?

 

If I knew this I would be happily married....

 

 

What you dont mention is road registration. Given you are MA then you have one of the more tricky states to deal with. I suspect a Stalker will deal with this better given its ability to make OBDII work. You may want to have an offline chat with Paul (Wemtd) who is in your location.

 

Cheers

mike

Edited May 14, 2015 by Croc
clarified Caterham service comments

[drew8mc]

 

 

 

Also I dont think it is a top speed issue. I suspect my Caterham has a close top speed on track to the V6 Stalker. Its style of driving. The small 4s have a revvier more active style that encourages use of the rev range. The Stalker V6 is a a more torquey style. Both are good in their own ways - but what is your style of driving.

 

 

 

What you dont mention is road registration. Given you are MA then you have one of the more tricky states to deal with. I suspect a Stalker will deal with this better given its ability to make OBDII work. You may want to have an offline chat with Paul (Wemtd) who is in your location.

 

Cheers

mike

 

Thanks Mike,

 

Firstly, it's hard to know what style of driving I would prefer. My current garage arsenal contains two turbocharged fours that like to be up higher in the rev range. (VW GTI, AUDI A4). I wouldn't mind some low end grunt though.

 

While I'm currently in MA, I will be moving to OR at the end of June. Not sure how difficult registration is there.

 

Drew

[Davemk1]

Thanks Dave. Looked a little at Westfield, and the Honda engines have a great rep. Do you mind sharing the cost of the kit and the overall cost to you? You can PM me if you don't want that public. How was your build experience? How long did it take.

 

PM sent.

 

dave

[Off Road SHO]

Hello all,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5. How do I tell my wife that I want to take up a spot in the garage by an immovable object for 2 years for a car we can't fit the kids in?

 

 

Drew

 

Easy. Get a few copies of Sport Pilot magazines, open them up to the ads in the back and circle some really hot single seat race planes, the most expensive ones. Leave on coffee table along with an ad for a two seater Locost. When she asks, tell her you're not sure which one to buy. She will not only go with you to pick up the LoCost, she will hook up the trailer to the truck for you.

 

Tom

[wemtd]

Croc left out the most lmportant bit of advice....

Come down to nj for the annual sevens July track day and social event.

It is the only opportunity to see an unbeatable array of cars in one place to compare styles, sizes, etc

 

I would put a shorter build time on the project. But once done it'll need somewhere to live.

 

5)If your wife is half as saintly as mine she'll understand. Otherwise a seven is less expensive and more convenient than a divorce, safer than a mistress...

 

... my son who goes to WPI!!!! Russ

:hurray:

 

 

I'm in CT if you'd like to look a a Birkin and talk build process PM me

 

P.

Edited May 8, 2015 by wemtd

[NVP66S]

About a year ago, I built a Westfield with a Miata drivetrain. Flyin' Miata in Colorado does the builder support and I have only good things to say about them. If you build a Westfield with an S2000 drivetrain, you will deal directly with the US importer, which is Manik in Texas. I love my car even though I have it torn apart at the moment as I am replacing the Miata instrument cluster with VDO gauges.

[xcarguy]

Drew,

 

Welcome to the forum. Pretty much what would have wanted to share, Croc already nailed down to a T. I currently own a Stalker (we jokingly refer to them as Storkers here on the forum) and am a former Birkin owner. The Stalker, while it kind of travels to the beat of its own drum in the ‘looks’ department when compared to a Caterham (my personal favorite) or a Birkin, does have a bit of a ‘parts availability’ advantage when it comes to building, maintenance, repair, etc. when compared to some of the other makes. However, they are all excellent cars in their own right and I would urge you to get what it is that YOU want in a 7.

 

To echo the words of wemtd, I would absolutely suggest that you attend the USA7’s group at NJMP in July. The event is a blast and the various cars that show up will give you food for thought on what direction to channel your interest in these cars. I went last year and only wish I could be there again this year.

 

You asked if it is quite an irrational obsession………I’d say only for those who are without passions in their lives.

 

Cheers! :cheers:

[toedrag]

I'll chime in with a couple of points:

 

I think if you value fit & finish and/or pedigree, then it rules out the Stalker (I'm nearing the end of my Stalker build, btw). That's not a knock against the Stalker; it's simply much more a "function over form" car.

 

On the other hand, the Stalker XL may be quite comfy for you. The 'normal' Stalker was already closer to SV sizing, and the XL is wider and longer than that. The seating options in the XL are numerous.

 

Since you mentioned the Street as your primary application, I'm told the inboard shocks of the current Stalker generation (M-Spec chassis) are very comfortable on the street. The geometry allows for more travel, softer springs, and still has adjustable dampers if you want to stiffen the ride for a track day. Once my build is complete and I'm driving, I'll be able to confirm this point. But, I can tell you from just bouncing the car sitting in the garage, it's almost cadillac-like with how cushy it is at the softest setting.

 

In terms of costs, the Stalker build sheet is pretty comprehensive, but it doesn't have everything, like powder coat, welding work, mechanical parking brake components & related fab work should that be required in your state.

 

Are you not interested in the V8 version of the Stalker? The aluminum block of the non-truck GM V8's will be more powerful and lighter than the V6 iron block + super charger I think. If you really wanted to, I think you could put a centrifugal supercharger on a V8 in the XL chassis (there's loads of room in front of the engine).

[DaveStruve]

Drew,

 

If your looking to go cheap, then a locost is the way to go. It's more work, but the experience is a big part of it. There are enough plans and build logs out there to make it a pretty straightforward process. Cost wise you could build one for around $5k and real nice one for about $10k. A true kit will simplify the process, but I think realistically your looking at spending around $20k for one of the lower priced kits start to finish.

[powderbrake]

I have an Ultralite, and from assembling most of it, I can say that two years is way longer than is necessary to build any car. Don't miss out on an already built car, there are always lots of things for you to work on. For roominess, I believe the Ultralite probably has the most room of any that I have sat in, It has lots of room for the feet, and an 18 inch wide drivers seat if you want, and most all the parts are easily sourced here in the USA

I second Davemk1's comments on the S2000 engine and transmission, they are really bulletprof.

 

And tell your wife that one good thing about tying up a spot in the garage with a car build is that she will always know where you are.

[speedwagon]

My advice; Buy!! You will get plenty of experience just keeping one going. Start looking and when you find the one that bumps your switch in your price range that fits you- buy it. Look at; fit, finish, build documentation and content. Miata drive train would be most reliable. Do not be afraid of a "home built" and do not worry about "best handling" (the light weight will give you that) I have a Manx clone that is quicker, handles nearly as good and is more fun to drive than my superformance S1. If you buy right in today's market, your losses when selling will be minor and whichever you buy later you will want something different. "don't worry be happy"

[coffee break]

When I got serious about getting a 7, I was asked this question. "What do you like more, building or driving?" My answer was driving. :auto:

I have all the equipment to build on but I'd rather have fun on a blat! If you are itching to work on a car, don't worry you'll find plenty of stuff to tinker with. :smash:

[drew8mc]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Unfortunately we will be moving to Oregon at the end of June so I won't be able to make it down to NJ at all. But someone did PM me locally about having a car. I'll see if maybe he can take me for a ride.

 

The more research I do, the more I lean toward one of the more traditional sevens, rather than the Stalker, although having driven neither, what do I really know?

[Blokko]

Hi from another Boston resident.

 

I really wanted to build a Caterham when I lived in the UK, but several people told me to buy a used one first and then build one later if I took to 7 ownership and the build itch didn't go away. You can always upgrade a second-hand car and get your spannnering fix that way (upgraditis is a well known disease within the 7 community :-) )

 

I'm about 6 foot and a little over 200lb. I originally had an S3 Caterham (guessing the Birkin is the same dimensions?) but my second one was an SV which was much more spacy and comfortable. I'm a US shoe size 12 and I could only drive the S3 wearing Puma Speedcats - couldn't use normal footwear. With the SV I could wear construction boots and still work the pedals.

 

I've sat in Westies on a number of occasions and to me the cabin seems snug. I needed the seat right back and would need to use Speedcats to be able to use the pedals properly.

 

Caterham's are great for multiple day tours. With the boot packed correctly and a SBF7's RE bag on top you can carry a lot of luggage. We have done Central England to France to Scotland and back home again over about 12 days. The inboard suspension on the Westie mean that you will get a lot less boot space.

 

If you do go down the build route, the Westie will take a lot more work, time, effort than the Caterham. I'm not familiar with any of the other kits, but I'd expect all of them to be a more difficult and time consuming project that a Caterham. Using my UK experience again, but I have only ever seen one part built Caterham offered for sale (and this was using a totally non-standard engine). Part built kits from other manufacturers crop up fairly regularly.

 

A big consideration in the US that doesn't exist in the UK is the red-tape involved in getting a car road-registered. This varies greatly from state to state - it is probably a good thing that you are moving away from MA in this respect.

 

One final thought - residual value. Others on here will be able to offer more of an insight than I can, but you should take this into consideration on a purchase. You will pay more for a Caterham (new or used) than other 7's, but I'd expect the residual value to be better come sale time.

[drew8mc]

So I mentioned the kit for the first time to my wife this weekend. She didn't say no. Well, she did say she didn't want to be "that house" on the street with junked donor cars on blocks. No argument there. When I first started dating her, she was driving a convertible Nissan 350Z. She's more of a speed demon than I am, and loves convertibles. I said we could take it on dates. She didn't say no. The seed has been planted.

[toedrag]

:cheers: She passed the wife test! You can keep her!