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Vovchandr
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50 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

 

Yes, thanks for catching that.  It does look odd.  Is it only on 2-4?

 

643642990_vladpiston(2).jpg.4b1dafeeade1799bf1afe87444adf874.jpg

 

-John

 

 

 

 

Yep 2/3/4 only. 

 

@Croc haven't given cleaning and the passages much thought. Most people just seem to clean the top and then change the oil/coolant soon after?

 

New water pump is on the way. Do you  mean investigate to see whether it's worth putting back or investigate as to what could have caused the issue to begin with?

 

Watched this video. I just got the same brushes delivered, will likely follow in his steps

 

 

I'll take any contrary advice if anybody has some to offer

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Since I am the type to not care about farting in elevators, I will say the obvious here....

 

I would not reassemble that engine without a full tear down to bare block.  Those rusty coolant galleys are unacceptable.  You will not be cleaning those with pipecleaners and Windex.  You will only do that type of cleaning with a bare block immersed in a chemical solution with electrical current.  If you reassemble with them looking like that you will be compromising the engine result.  Simply put, you will not have completely solved your cooling issues and you will continue to see evidence of problems and it will less reliable and more likely to fail.  

 

I know this is not what you want to hear.  I get you are on a budget and are trying to do things right but not spend extra money where not necessary.  You may be thinking the cheap option here is just to reassemble the head and off you go.  Thats no longer the case.   Thats the really expensive option since you will have to do a full rebuild in some short order plus you are depriving yourself from a reliable car for longer plus the resale value loss if you sell with this internally flawed engine.  

 

I am sure there are others reading this post who are sharing some of my concerns but do not want to offend.   

 

However, if someone has a better idea than me then please step up and say so as this is the critical decision time for Vlad's project and he needs the best guidance he can get from what I know to be a really experienced bunch of "old hands" in this club.  I won't be offended if my views are contradicted for good reasons - we are all learning here, me included.

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Again, I have a perfectly good spare SVT block/head gathering dust. Happy to offer it at steep discount to clear out my basement. PM me Vlad, if tempted. 
 

It  underwent the top end rebuild that you are contemplating and logged maybe 500-1000 miles since being pulled. I’d replace the oil pump to be safe, that’s it.

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1 hour ago, Croc said:

 

Since I am the type to not care about farting in elevators, I will say the obvious here....

 

I would not reassemble that engine without a full tear down to bare block.  Those rusty coolant galleys are unacceptable.  You will not be cleaning those with pipecleaners and Windex.  You will only do that type of cleaning with a bare block immersed in a chemical solution with electrical current.  If you reassemble with them looking like that you will be compromising the engine result.  Simply put, you will not have completely solved your cooling issues and you will continue to see evidence of problems and it will less reliable and more likely to fail.  

 

I know this is not what you want to hear.  I get you are on a budget and are trying to do things right but not spend extra money where not necessary.  You may be thinking the cheap option here is just to reassemble the head and off you go.  Thats no longer the case.   Thats the really expensive option since you will have to do a full rebuild in some short order plus you are depriving yourself from a reliable car for longer plus the resale value loss if you sell with this internally flawed engine.  

 

I am sure there are others reading this post who are sharing some of my concerns but do not want to offend.   

 

However, if someone has a better idea than me then please step up and say so as this is the critical decision time for Vlad's project and he needs the best guidance he can get from what I know to be a really experienced bunch of "old hands" in this club.  I won't be offended if my views are contradicted for good reasons - we are all learning here, me included.

 

I appreciate the candor but I think this is where I draw the line on my risk/reward decision making. 

 

Unless the car cannot function being put back with the block/coolant passages as is, it is going back together without engine coming out.

 

This is for an array of reasons, some of which include needing a resolution for higher hierarchy severe issues of cams being out of alignment and needing a tune and the car falling flat on it's face after acceleration while on decel. The latter has become drastic and quite concerning last time I operated. Once these two issues can be considered closed, I can address the rust issues, which I personally think can be mitigated in their severity or fully addressed this winter. 

 

I am listening to all opinions none-the less. My main consultant on these matters is on vacation this week and has not chimed in yet. 

 

If the engine has to come out, I can pretty much guarantee not making it to NJMP this year. While I understand my desires for a track day don't overrule facts of the engine situation, the event in itself is an opportunity cost which I value pretty heavily in pros/cons of decision making. 

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I have been busy and not reading the forum. Went to VIR had a good time but lost a clutch. Some of the pictures indicate areas that could have been leaking coolant or compressing the water jacket. The pictures are harder to read then the actual parts. You should see rings around the cylinder block and head with no breaches. The head gasket has steel rings that compress and form the bright rings. Some of the cylinders and head surfaces look like they could have been leaking. To clean the block if you do not take it apart scape as much off as you can. Use a file or something you know is flat and wrap sandpaper around it to clean the rest. Tape the pistons to the cylinder walls to stop dirt from getting down to the rings. After you clean up from cleaning the deck remove the tape and use motor oil on the cylinders. run the pistons up and down and wipe the oil and potentially dirt that might have gotten down past the tape or wasn't cleaned up the first time. Get a very good strait edge and check that the top of the block is flat. Especially between cylinders. check multiple places. I would check across all the cylinders in the middle and then X the pattern.   If you completely disassemble the engine try to find a machine shop that still uses a Oakite 33 in a hot tank to clean the block. The machine shop might not know they are using Oakite and just call their cleaning method a hot tank. This will be hard to find. The EPA doesn't like the stuff. Most places use high pressure washers now. Oakite will remove the rust. The down side is you need to make sure you oil the block as soon as it comes out of the tank because Oakite is a acid and will leave everything susceptible to rust. Only run antifreeze water coolant or water and anticorrosion in the cooling system after it has been cleaned. If you do not disassemble the  shot block get brushes and run them down all the water passages. When you get it together flush the cooling system. If you want to get really really careful put the short block on a engine stand crankshaft up. Plug up different holes in the cooling system and flush the water passages. Send the head to a machine shop and have it milled flat. Tell them you need to know how much needs to come off. You can figure out if you use the same technic I suggested for the block, but I would have it milled to make sure it is flat. The only exception is if it has already been milled a lot and you are concerned about raising the compression ratio. The best way to check the cam is actually look at the lifters. They should be slightly crowned. That is why someone suggested you check to see if they rotated. They will ware rapidly if they do not rotate. If they are dished you have a problem. There are lots of places to teach you how to degree a cam and it sounds like you are getting the tools. One other thing to check is piston to valve clearance. It is a pain in the neck to do. If you are not confident you aren't putting the cams back where they were installed originally. I do not know how critical the valve to piston clearance is in these engines. If you can tell me the compression ratio and valve lift of the cams I will check with the guy who assembles the engines for Quicksilver.          

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Had not seen the Ford video before writing my comments above. I would still mill the head and check everything with a strait edge. Croc's block cleaning method will work better at removing rust. You can do it a home with a battery charge and a tank of water. 

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6 hours ago, CarlB said:

I have been busy and not reading the forum. Went to VIR had a good time but lost a clutch.

 

Some of the pictures indicate areas that could have been leaking coolant or compressing the water jacket. The pictures are harder to read then the actual parts. You should see rings around the cylinder block and head with no breaches. The head gasket has steel rings that compress and form the bright rings. Some of the cylinders and head surfaces look like they could have been leaking.

 

To clean the block if you do not take it apart scape as much off as you can. Use a file or something you know is flat and wrap sandpaper around it to clean the rest. Tape the pistons to the cylinder walls to stop dirt from getting down to the rings.

 

After you clean up from cleaning the deck remove the tape and use motor oil on the cylinders. run the pistons up and down and wipe the oil and potentially dirt that might have gotten down past the tape or wasn't cleaned up the first time.

 

Get a very good strait edge and check that the top of the block is flat. Especially between cylinders. check multiple places. I would check across all the cylinders in the middle and then X the pattern. 

 

 If you completely disassemble the engine try to find a machine shop that still uses a Oakite 33 in a hot tank to clean the block. The machine shop might not know they are using Oakite and just call their cleaning method a hot tank. This will be hard to find. The EPA doesn't like the stuff. Most places use high pressure washers now. Oakite will remove the rust. The down side is you need to make sure you oil the block as soon as it comes out of the tank because Oakite is a acid and will leave everything susceptible to rust.

 

Only run antifreeze water coolant or water and anticorrosion in the cooling system after it has been cleaned. If you do not disassemble the  shot block get brushes and run them down all the water passages.

 

When you get it together flush the cooling system. If you want to get really really careful put the short block on a engine stand crankshaft up. Plug up different holes in the cooling system and flush the water passages.

 

Send the head to a machine shop and have it milled flat. Tell them you need to know how much needs to come off. You can figure out if you use the same technic I suggested for the block, but I would have it milled to make sure it is flat. The only exception is if it has already been milled a lot and you are concerned about raising the compression ratio.

 

The best way to check the cam is actually look at the lifters. They should be slightly crowned. That is why someone suggested you check to see if they rotated. They will ware rapidly if they do not rotate. If they are dished you have a problem.

 

There are lots of places to teach you how to degree a cam and it sounds like you are getting the tools. One other thing to check is piston to valve clearance. It is a pain in the neck to do. If you are not confident you aren't putting the cams back where they were installed originally. I do not know how critical the valve to piston clearance is in these engines. If you can tell me the compression ratio and valve lift of the cams I will check with the guy who assembles the engines for Quicksilver.          

 

6 hours ago, CarlB said:

Had not seen the Ford video before writing my comments above. I would still mill the head and check everything with a strait edge. Croc's block cleaning method will work better at removing rust. You can do it a home with a battery charge and a tank of water. 

 

@CarlB thank you for a comprehensive guide. It's a lot to take in, I'll break it into paragraphs and follow it along.

 

I looked at the imprint rings in the head from the head gasket and didn't see any tell tale signs. Not sure if it matters at this point in time either way. 

 

I'll tape the cylinders off & scrape the top and use those cleaning brush wheels from video to clean it up well. 

 

I'll get a good straight edge to test the top and good brushes to run into passages. There are plenty of crusty chunks that are coming off all around. 

 

I'll only use coolant from now on and avoid water. 

 

Machine shop has the head now under guidance of my experienced friend who's done a million of these.

 

I have the tool and will use it to set TDC but I'm likely going to 0 out the cams, matching to each other, put everything back together and hope it starts as is and runs good enough to get it to a tuner. ~3% chance it will run better than ever and timing was off and head gasket fix resolved everything. 

 

Zetecs are not interference engines so I'm not sure the value of checking clearance of pistons to valves. 

 

Thanks for the advice/guidance. 

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Todays moment of idiocy goes to me.

 

Tried to get the crank pulley off with the impact. It was spinning the motor and not coming off. Trying to be clever and not wanting the engine to spin dry I poured oil onto each one of the cylinders so they don't spin dry against the walls during the process.

 

Went back to trying to get the crank off and it spun the motor as expected until cylinders reached TDC and spilled the oil over into the galleys next to them. 

 

Looks like I'm definitely going to be in need of coolant flushing when I'm done with all this one way or another. 

 

Edit: After thinking about it, I'm just going to leave it in gear to stop from spinning and try again. :classic_blink:

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If the in gear does not work, you may be able to lock the flywheel thru the starter opening. You will need a 2nd person, or method to expand a wedge tight between the flywheel and against the housing.

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Small victory today

 

I didn't see anyway to fit impact into the chassis directly so had to use extension and swivel adapter which im sure diminished the power. In the end, placed into gear all worked out 

 

IMG_20210731_114807089_HDR.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

On 7/29/2021 at 5:40 PM, Vovchandr said:

Machine shop has the head now under guidance of my experienced friend who's done a million of these.

 

 

Any updates?  Did the head check out ok at the machine shop?

 

-John

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39 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

 

 

Any updates?  Did the head check out ok at the machine shop?

 

-John

 

No updates from them yet. Will check in by the end of the week.

 

Realized that I should test my intercooler for leaks because it looks like it was used as a soccer ball by the USPS system

 

IMG_20210802_190235391_HDR.jpg

 

IMG_20210802_190227829_HDR.jpg

 

IMG_20210802_190153879.jpg

 

IMG_20210802_190244753.jpg

 

 

 

Also started to spin brush clean the coolant channels but the quality/effectiveness of these spin brushes seems questionable and I'm also uncertain how useful this task in on the grand scheme of things. 

 

Parts should be arriving this week - HG/Timing parts etc. 

 

Waiting on some other small parts from UK such as the exhaust bobbin. 

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1 hour ago, JohnCh said:

Wow, that's a lot of damage!  Did you buy that from Caterhams' scratch and dent bin, or did that happen in shipping to you?

 

-John

 

Used in good condition from Norway. Went MIA for about a month in Detroit customs, then suddenly started moving and got delivered. 

 

I can live with it and fix it if it holds pressure. If it doesn't I'd likely have to escalate.

 

So far shipping has claimed 2 windshields from UK and one bonnet which got a bit scratched and dented. 

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I just had an antique clock damaged in interstate shipping, but have always been fortunate in orders from the UK.  One trick is to never write the word "Fragile" on the outside as some shippers seem to take that as a challenge. :)  Looking forward to your next update!

 

-John

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1 hour ago, JohnCh said:

I just had an antique clock damaged in interstate shipping, but have always been fortunate in orders from the UK.  One trick is to never write the word "Fragile" on the outside as some shippers seem to take that as a challenge. :)  Looking forward to your next update!

 

-John

 

Update from the machine shop - everything looks pretty good. I need a new valve bucket. No broken springs or anything. 

 

Who Knows Idk GIF

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News from the machine shop

 

Cylinder #1 that was making noise had a stuck valve lash cap. Guy said he needed vice grips to get it off and you can see the imprint. He said it would likely have made the noise I heard coming from that cylinder. Not sure how but I can go with that theory.

 

He also indicated wear on that bucket for that cylinder pictured below. (See middle bucket in shot)

 

With a new lash cap everything can go back together to end the year but he did recommend fixing it over winter property. I potentially need a new intake cam as well due to some mild wear on the lobe. 

 

Finding a lash cap replacement is a little difficult so far. Went to Ford and they couldn't even find the cap on their diagram or give me a part number... But also said regardless it wouldn't be available. Ok. 

 

 

 

Once replacement is found I can start putting things together. 

 

 

 

IMG_20210812_190931504~2.jpg

 

IMG_20210812_190913661~2.jpg

 

IMG_20210812_160306122~2.jpg

 

IMG_20210812_161214038_HDR.jpg

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