Deposit In. Questions for Senior Drivers

[jbcollier]

“death grip on the steering wheel”

 

A set-up good for the track is going to be no fun on the road.  Mine tracks straight and true.  There’s just too much going on for me to actually fall asleep at the wheel but my mind can wander any time it likes.

 

How visible you are to other road users is a very serious issue.  Never thought I could drive anything less visible than my motorcycles but a Seven in traffic is virtually invisible.  I have had people pass me pointing and staring, only to cut me off 50 feet later!

 

You should NEVER be beside another vehicle in traffic, always ahead or behind.

[jbcollier]

Occasional toots from the horn won’t go amiss either.  Seven horns need to be LOUD.

[CarlB]

The Caterham cage is much easier to get in than mine. 

[NeoBear]

10 hours ago, rider said:

 

Thanks for sharing. I'm in MN. Few questions:
- Heat: I see you've '21 Birkin. I was told current Caterhams have heat insulation. So, your Birkin is different? 
- Wind Pressure: Have you tried ear plugs? With Windscreen and door, Seven is no different from any other Roadster, right? Only wind buffeting is from the back. All my cars but one have been Roadsters. I wear ear plugs to minimize wind noise/pressure. 
- I'm guessing you meant, "things 'don't' fit". Could you elaborate on this? 

 

Yes, My Birkin is insulated the whole footwell area and transmission tunnel. In fact, I assumed this was something the car was not going to come with I was pleasantly surprised and thankful. Again, it is only on really hot days and only when the car is not moving. Really only the footwell area and I think it is worse on the passenger's side which makes sense the way the exhaust is routed.

 

The wind pressure thing is not really my ears. It is physically the way the Air hits the left side of your face once you hit a certain speed, it turns into a constant pulsing, if I lean over like half a foot to the right it almost goes away. I should also mention I only notice it when I am trundling along on the freeway. Again, this is only an issue in extremes, think of those days when it is so hot that no matter how fast you go the wind hitting your skin is just not pleasant, on the flip side on colder days the wind will force all kinds of bodily fluid out of my nose. My car does have those little side windshield guards, but they are mostly to stop rocks they don't seem to do much to stop the wind. I haven't really thought about trying doors, I don't like to drive with my left arm tucked in the car, but I am sure they wouldn't make things worse.

 

The "things don't fit" bit is really hard to explain, when I was building the car, and something just didn't seem like it would work Tom would always tell me "It will fit/go/work" and he was always right. you have to understand this was more a reflection of me not knowing Jack about cars. An example would be in order to put the diff in the car you have to take out both diff plugs that didn't make sense to me, but it worked silly stuff like that.

[JohnCh]

Keep in mind that although the 420R has been modernized in a few areas (e.g. engine, heated windscreen, stiffer frame, increased cabin space), it is still a design that dates back nearly 70 years.  Even in 1957, the Seven wasn't considered a paragon of comfort or NVH control.  

 
Freeway and city driving are not its forte, however, those are often necessary evils to reach the good roads.  It's something we just need to accept.  Fortunately, there are ways to mitigate some discomforts.  Freeway journeys?  Put on the sidescreens.  They significantly reduce the buffeting.  Trips in really hot sun, particularly when you will be driving slowly at times with no airflow through the cabin?  Get a half hood.  It's a giant sunshade, and as a bonus, it also helps with buffeting.  

Mental fatigue from driving on busy freeways or in cities is real – you are always on the alert for texting, latte swilling SUV drivers. Short of becoming a Zen master, there's not much you can do to minimize it, but you can treat the symptoms with a strong beverage once you arrive at your destination.

Bottom line, this is not a normal car.  But if it were, it wouldn't be so much fun.  Learn to embrace the suck and enjoy the corners.

[rider]

Sorry gentlemen, for the delayed response. I was traveling for business; had no time at all to do personal messaging. 

 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 12:03 AM, jbcollier said:

They are as reliable as the person preparing them.  On long trips, do bring a few spare a-frame bushings though.  They have a short life even if there are no oil leaks.

 

Your statement reaffirms what I've learned spending enormous amount of time on various forums, reading through tons of posts, over the years: Seven's reliability is extremely sensitive to who and how it was built and maintained! 'evo' magazine picked up their new. long-term 420R from the factory. On their way home, the fuel gauge failed! Brand freakin' new car, built by the factory!! So, no, I wouldn't touch someone else's Seven with a ten-foot pole, as a buyer!

 

Thanks for the tip on A-Frame. Added to my list. Will post up a separate thread on this topic (Common Failures and Remediation). 

 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 6:41 AM, Vovchandr said:

 

A lot of it is due to Aeroscreen but a bit of it is just due to pure nature of the car. If you've ever ridden bikes it's as close to a bike experience as you can get in a car.

..........

I have Aeroscreen, sequential straight cut transmission, fiberglass seats, no doors or half doors. I'm in the extreme of self abuse. 

...........

Mentally it's a lot. 

......

 

As a long-time rider of Gen 1 MV Agusta F4 (Gen 2 is a softie, relatively!), and a few other bikes, I can relate to your comments with respect to bikes. 

 

Constant exposure to wind noise is really bad for the ears. We'll pay a price beyond certain age. Ear plugs could cut down 20-30 db. But, if you're starting with a high #, due to Aero Screens, no door/Side Curtains, even with Ear Plugs, the noise level will remain higher than safe limit.

 

Your seat makes a big difference too. Heated leather seats will work in your favor over fiberglass....! Sounds like your Seven is setup for an "extreme" experience! If it hinders enjoying in more scenarios without stressing mentally, you could consider toning it down. In my observation, out of the box, for the street, near-stock specs seem just right.

 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 8:10 AM, jbcollier said:

.......

A set-up good for the track is going to be no fun on the road.  

......

How visible you are to other road users is a very serious issue.  ......

 

You should NEVER be beside another vehicle in traffic, always ahead or behind.

 

It is easy to get lost in mods and setup tweaks. 

 

Yes, being visible is a start. But, many drivers are so zoned out, they look at you but don't "see" you! Their minds are elsewhere. Lack of focus is the real problem. Seven is so low to the ground, it needs even more careful placement/positioning than a motorcycle, which is much taller. 
 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:38 AM, CarlB said:

The Caterham cage is much easier to get in than mine. 

 

I'll be spec'ing Track Day Cage. So, I expect ingress/egress to be lot easier. 

 

 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 10:41 AM, NeoBear said:

 

Yes, My Birkin is insulated the whole footwell area and transmission tunnel. In fact, I assumed this was something the car was not going to come with I was pleasantly surprised and thankful. Again, it is only on really hot days and only when the car is not moving. Really only the footwell area and I think it is worse on the passenger's side which makes sense the way the exhaust is routed.

 

The wind pressure thing is not really my ears. It is physically the way the Air hits the left side of your face once you hit a certain speed, it turns into a constant pulsing, if I lean over like half a foot to the right it almost goes away. I should also mention I only notice it when I am trundling along on the freeway. Again, this is only an issue in extremes, think of those days when it is so hot that no matter how fast you go the wind hitting your skin is just not pleasant, on the flip side on colder days the wind will force all kinds of bodily fluid out of my nose. My car does have those little side windshield guards, but they are mostly to stop rocks they don't seem to do much to stop the wind. I haven't really thought about trying doors, I don't like to drive with my left arm tucked in the car, but I am sure they wouldn't make things worse.

 

The "things don't fit" bit is really hard to explain, when I was building the car, and something just didn't seem like it would work Tom would always tell me "It will fit/go/work" and he was always right. you have to understand this was more a reflection of me not knowing Jack about cars. An example would be in order to put the diff in the car you have to take out both diff plugs that didn't make sense to me, but it worked silly stuff like that.

 

Cabin, particularly foot well, heat is my biggest concern. During about 10 minutes of driving I had, I don't remember feeling any heat. But, I would need more than 10 minutes and in traffic conditions. It was a cool morning at a high elevation. So, not true representation. 

 

Would carbon fiber side panels, on the inside, help? Stock 420 is well insulated, I was told. I won't enjoy hot foot well or cabin, especially for my passenger. This is a real concern for me. 

 

So, you don't have doors and side curtains. Combined, will make a huge difference. But, I hear you about having to keep your arm tucked in. Since yours is S3 (I think), makes it bit uncomfortable. My spec is SV with arm support on the doors. So, I'm hoping I should be fine.

 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 2:53 PM, JohnCh said:

Keep in mind that although the 420R has been modernized in a few areas (e.g. engine, heated windscreen, stiffer frame, increased cabin space), it is still a design that dates back nearly 70 years.  Even in 1957, the Seven wasn't considered a paragon of comfort or NVH control.  

 
Freeway and city driving are not its forte, however, those are often necessary evils to reach the good roads.  .......

Mental fatigue from driving on busy freeways or in cities is real – 

...........
Bottom line, this is not a normal car.  But if it were, it wouldn't be so much fun.  Learn to embrace the suck and enjoy the corners.

 

All good points, John; thanks. If Seven were a normal sports car, I probably wouldn't be so obsessed about it! For a regular sports car, I really don't think there is anything better out there than a Porsche! I'm a Porschephile! As a package, there is no substitute! However, thankfully, a Seven is not a Porsche! Yes, let's celebrate it! 

 

 

Edited April 24 by rider

[slowdude]

Can only echo the motorcycle mindset.

When preparing for a long bike trip, you always have the checklist of gear. 

 

The same falls true for the caterham. This winter I took it on a 500 mile trip in the northeast. Roof, doors, heater and driving like a motorcyclist is really what you need. Replacing the A Arm and bushings really helped tighten up the rear end of the car. 

 

One thing that I have only gotten comments on are lights. Switching to LEDs makes driving at night a lot better, plus increases daytime visibility. 

 

I leave my doors on pretty much the entire time -> it's easier to commute with, and earplugs make life a lot better. 

 

Since you ride a motorcycle, you understand the need for good gear. I've found the sailing jackets with high collars are warm and wind/waterproof. Try out some things that will make you more comfortable.

[Vovchandr]

On 4/20/2024 at 11:40 AM, rider said:

Sounds like your Seven is setup for an "extreme" experience! If it hinders enjoying in more scenarios without stressing mentally, you could consider toning it down. In my observation, out of the box, for the street, near-stock specs seeem just right.

 

Yes my setup is "extreme" by design. I wouldn't have it other way. On a rare occasion when I'm in "winter" mode with doors/windshield/half hood it really feels like too much of a toned down experience and I'm not enjoying it. It just feels like a tiny regular with many more handicaps. Sort of like a Goldwing vs a Supersport. Same principle but very different experience. One is extreme/track oriented by design and that's what makes it so appealing. Other is made for people to ride across country. Fine for some but not for me.

 

I don't drive this car to get somewhere. I drive it to get the experience along the way. It certainly provides that. Even if it's overwhelming.

 

(Every Lamborghini Countach owner liked the statement above)

[rider]

On 4/20/2024 at 12:18 PM, slowdude said:

.......

The same falls true for the caterham. This winter I took it on a 500 mile trip in the northeast. Roof, doors, heater and driving like a motorcyclist is really what you need. .....

One thing that I have only gotten comments on are lights. Switching to LEDs makes driving at night a lot better, plus increases daytime visibility. 

.....

Since you ride a motorcycle, you understand the need for good gear. I've found the sailing jackets with high collars are warm and wind/waterproof. Try out some things that will make you more comfortable.

 

Yes, having a kit onboard for a long travel will make a big difference. Will add to the list. Thanks.

 

Agree on the LED lights; will spec them. Will check on the sailing jacket though have many jackets (and related gear) for different use cases and temps. Besides living in Frozen Tundra aka MN makes you prep for a wide temp variation...!

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

.......

I don't drive this car to get somewhere. I drive it to get the experience along the way. It certainly provides that. Even if it's overwhelming.

(Every Lamborghini Countach owner liked the statement above)

 

I actually understand that sentiment and can relate....! It's all about diversified experiences! That's one of the reasons Seven is still thriving. Only the mandated sunset of ICE will make it go away.....! (An EV Seven isn't a Seven....!)

 

Guessing you have a Countach? Super cool car! 

 

[Vovchandr]

9 hours ago, rider said:

Guessing you have a Countach? Super cool car! 

 

Oh no.

 

No no no. 

 

I don't think I could afford basic service on one. 

 

Its just the perfect example that popped into my head. There is a pretty universal ethos about it where it's cool to look it but a "horrible" car to drive by all the accounts and it's essentially a workout during a boot camp. Sitting position is off set with pedals, shifter takes 50lb of force to shift, clutch is hard, visibility is none, headroom is minimal, comfort features are few, getting in and out is hard, backing up is impossible, steering is heavy. Etc. 

 

But nobody gets out of it after a ride and says it was boring. 

 

A lot of modern super car owners and collectors buy them thinking it will be tame and civil like their modern super cars and are in for quite a surprise when it's anything but. Many end up not driving them much or selling them.

 

Edit: @Croc would be surprised if Croc didn't have a first hand experience with one. 

Edited April 23 by Vovchandr

[theDreamer]

Answering your original questions:

I had driven or ridden in many Lotus and Caterham sevens over the decades. The turning point for me was back to back drives in first a Caterham 1700 Super Sprint and then a 15 minute romp in a HPC back in 1994. A couple of days later I drove a Lotus Seven Series 2 ½ for about a half hour on some gorgeous country roads. Before that weekend I had made my mind up I was buying the Lotus. But after the HPC I just knew the Lotus wasn’t for me. It had all the drawbacks of an old world seven with none of the pleasures that came with the newer, more powerful Caterhams.

I turned 70 in January of this year; the wife will be 68 come this June. I’m short and overweight, 5’ 4” and about 185lbs.

I plan on driving my “new to me” seven that I just got home a week ago as long as I am physically able to or they yank my license. (Whichever comes first.)

I’m finding getting in and out a real problem, even more so for my wife. We’ve adopted a rather frowned upon strategy. We will wipe the soles of our shoes with a heavy towel and then place that towel on the seat. We then stand on the seat and bending at the knees we lower ourselves  down and in with the aid of our arms. Getting out is a little trickier. We sort of work our way up the seat back by again bending our knees and bringing our feet up the floor and then straightening our legs out to push ourselves up the seat backs. It takes several goes to where we can stand up on the seat to exit. We have yet to get the roof, (hood) on. I’m not looking forward to attempting ingress or egress with it up.

Mind you I was still riding my sport bikes (MV Agusta F3 675 and Ducati SS FE 900) up to a couple of years ago. And in the past I had a Lotus Europa TCS and raced motorcycles and F2000 open wheeled formula cars. I did weight training and rode trials bikes to keep in shape. So it’s upsetting to find out my body is letting me down now. But old age will happen to everyone. I just took too much out of mine when I was younger.

My car has a very heavy cable clutch to the point that I had to move the seat fully forward so I would gain more leverage for my left leg. During the 2+ hour drive home I got used to it. I’ve only stalled the car once so far.

I say, get the car now because you will be able to drive and enjoy it. Who knows what will happen in twenty years’ time. Cleaner burning synthetic fuels may save ICE vehicles and our overburdened electrical grid. Even if you can’t drive it in your latter years and are forced to sell it you will have had the enjoyment of it up to that point. So many things I regret not doing when I could have because of my thought process at the time.

Edited April 24 by theDreamer

[Croc]

3 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

 

 

 

Edit: @Croc would be surprised if Croc didn't have a first hand experience with one. 

 

 

Yes - I have driven a Countach.  There is no ventilation inside.  Its claustrophobic.  The driving position was designed for an orangutang.   The steering is set in concrete form of heavy.  The couple of hundred pounds of clutch pedal pressure takes some getting used to.   Its a soft mushy suspension by the standards of today.  Not even especially quick today despite 350hp of overexaggerated hp by Lamborghini in the period.   Reversing a Countach is easier than you think.  Sit on the sill with the door up.  Use the clutch with your left leg and she walks backwards slowly on idle.  Steering for reverse parking in that position is agony though. 

 

The best way to describe the Countach is she is like the world's sexiest mistress.  You drive it and after 30 minutes you are a sweaty sticky mess.  Exhilarated yet exhausted, wanting to escape, have a shower and recover despite having the biggest shit-eating grin on your face. 

 

However for day to day life, I prefer my Espada as that is the one you marry - I put more than a few 9 hour cross country drive days at high speed into mine and exit feeling fairly fresh albeit with bulging arm muscles and left leg muscles. 

 

As for maintenance - be scared.  Be very very very scared....  

 

But all those foibles are forgiven when you use the rifle bolt action shifter to drop a cog or two and smush your right foot deep into the carpet to let her wail....oh my god....instant third leg!

 

A seven is easier to drive, cheaper to run, and you can drive it longer than a Countach.

 

 

[theDreamer]

Addendum to my previous post:

I forgot to mention that with my size, arthritis and shoulder problems I have found it difficult to snap/unsnap the doors. Also, I have to remember to do this before doing up the four point harness. Best way for me is to use my right hand (car is LHD) across my midsection to do up the lower snap. Then turning my upper torso left while lifting my left arm and shoulder use the right hand for the upper rear snap. I’ve seen skinny young fellas use their left hand and bend their left arm in some unnatural positions to accomplish the same task.

Positioning the rear view mirrors is a two person job. In fact, there are a lot of things you’d never think about until you have a seven that now requires you to. Those who have owned sevens for some time have found these to become second nature to them. But, for new owners we have to go through this learning curve. Like riding motorcycles you have to remember to cancel the turn signals. My wife had a 1986 Ducati 650 Indiana and it had the loudest turn signal beep I’ve ever heard. You never forgot to cancel those signals. But in the seven I can’t hear that click, click sound. Plus, in day light I can’t see the lights on the fenders, (front wings) when they’re flashing.

I’m sure I’ll remember more things as time passes.

[slowdude]

1 hour ago, theDreamer said:

Addendum to my previous post:

 

I forgot to mention that with my size, arthritis and shoulder problems I have found it difficult to snap/unsnap the doors. Also, I have to remember to do this before doing up the four point harness. Best way for me is to use my right hand (car is LHD) across my midsection to do up the lower snap. Then turning my upper torso left while lifting my left arm and shoulder use the right hand for the upper rear snap. I’ve seen skinny young fellas use their left hand and bend their left arm in some unnatural positions to accomplish the same task.

 

Positioning the rear view mirrors is a two person job. In fact, there are a lot of things you’d never think about until you have a seven that now requires you to. Those who have owned sevens for some time have found these to become second nature to them. But, for new owners we have to go through this learning curve. Like riding motorcycles you have to remember to cancel the turn signals. My wife had a 1986 Ducati 650 Indiana and it had the loudest turn signal beep I’ve ever heard. You never forgot to cancel those signals. But in the seven I can’t hear that click, click sound. Plus, in day light I can’t see the lights on the fenders, (front wings) when they’re flashing.

 

I’m sure I’ll remember more things as time passes.

 

You mention a good point. I took the turn signal horn off my CB750, but its just a power and a ground, so in theory anything could be adapted to the harness.

 

[CBuff]

Where there’s a will there’s a way

 

 

[rider]

 

9 hours ago, theDreamer said:

 

I had driven or ridden in many Lotus and Caterham sevens over the decades. ...........

 

I plan on driving my “new to me” seven that I just got home a week ago as long as I am physically able to or they yank my license. (Whichever comes first.)

 

I’m finding getting in and out a real problem, even more so for my wife. 

..........

Mind you I was still riding my sport bikes (MV Agusta F3 675 and Ducati SS FE 900) up to a couple of years ago.

.......

I say, get the car now because you will be able to drive and enjoy it. ...... So many things I regret not doing when I could have because of my thought process at the time.

 

 

Thanks, theDreamer. Your experience is inspiring. When we're young, we all do some stuff that come back and bite us in later years of our lives. But, you're able to make it work. If you had Trackday Rollcage would have helped with ingress/egress. I'll be spec'in it. Driving the Seven could actually be helping you to keep your spirits high.

 

This forum is great. Have had a ton of great feedback from members. I've decided to go all-in! 

 

 

13 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

................There is a pretty universal ethos about it where it's cool to look it but a "horrible" car to drive by all the accounts and it's essentially a workout during a boot camp. Sitting position is off set with pedals, shifter takes 50lb of force to shift, clutch is hard, visibility is none, headroom is minimal, comfort features are few, getting in and out is hard, backing up is impossible, steering is heavy. Etc. 

 

But nobody gets out of it after a ride and says it was boring. 

.........

 

9 hours ago, Croc said:

 

 

Yes - I have driven a Countach.  There is no ventilation inside.  Its claustrophobic.  The driving position was designed for an orangutang.   The steering is set in concrete form of heavy.  The couple of hundred pounds of clutch pedal pressure takes some getting used to.   Its a soft mushy suspension by the standards of today.  ...........

The best way to describe the Countach is she is like the world's sexiest mistress.  You drive it and after 30 minutes you are a sweaty sticky mess.  Exhilarated yet exhausted, wanting to escape, have a shower and recover despite having the biggest shit-eating grin on your face. 

........

A seven is easier to drive, cheaper to run, and you can drive it longer than a Countach.

 

 

 

This is one of the reasons I'm bit torn on classic cars per se. Aside from the "feel", the handling, etc. have moved on to a different planet! Another score for Seven: classic car looks and feel with modern handling!

 

 

7 hours ago, theDreamer said:

 

I forgot to mention that with my size, arthritis and shoulder problems I have found it difficult to snap/unsnap the doors. 

.........

Positioning the rear view mirrors is a two person job. In fact, there are a lot of things you’d never think about until you have a seven that now requires you to. ........ But in the seven I can’t hear that click, click sound. Plus, in day light I can’t see the lights on the fenders, (front wings) when they’re flashing.

........

 

Wow, despite these challenges, you're still rolling in the Seven. Impressive indeed! I've no excuse! Thanks again for sharing. 

 

 

[scannon]

That Caterham Butt Extractor made it possible to put 28k miles on my Caterham SV.  I haven't been able to come up with an aid for getting in and out of my Z06 Corvette.

 

Instead of having two bad shoulders, the left one got repaired and the right one doesn't have any rotator cuff at all, not to mention my spine looks like a cork screw and I have lost 10" of height in the last few years.

 

These are 3 of my 5 current cars.  My photographer friend was having some fun with photoshop.

 

[rider]

7 minutes ago, scannon said:

That Caterham Butt Extractor made it possible to put 28k miles on my Caterham SV.  I haven't been able to come up with an aid for getting in and out of my Z06 Corvette.

.........

These are 3 of my 5 current cars.  

 

 

 

28k with assist? Very impressive! I'm guessing you're able to get in/out of Miata. At least you still have open-top driving. Keep it going as long as you can safely. 

 

[scannon]

4 minutes ago, rider said:

 

28k with assist? Very impressive! I'm guessing you're able to get in/out of Miata. At least you still have open-top driving. Keep it going as long as you can safely. 

 

I can get in and out of all of my 5 current cars with some pain in the shoulder but it is worth it.

[scannon]

On 4/7/2024 at 7:03 PM, rider said:

So, here are the questions for Senior Drivers of Seven, present and past:

- What age group you're in? I'm in mid-50s. (I'm fit and slim, by the way) I'm 79 short and fat.
- How late into your driving life you plan to be driving the Seven?  I had the 7 for 11 years including 1 1/2 years of build.  I put a 2000cc Miata engine and transmission in an SV.  While I was at it I turbocharged the engine.  It dyno'd at 301 RWHP
- If you stopped driving Seven, what made you to stop? I sold the car and moved on.  Tried to but it back but no luch.

 

 

 

Thanks.