New guy. Here is my Cat

[panamericano]

The key chain has cycle fenders like my car.  It had a full windshield, but it broke so now it matches my Brooklands.

[Vovchandr]

For those curious, this is what the key is supposed to look like for the key fob

 

 

 

From everything I looked into the ONLY way to get it is with a new key cylinder. Doesn't come as a blank, nor does it come from a third party. I believe those might be made in house. 

 

STEERING COLUMN LOCK ALL CARS - Reference: 71247294D

 

As far as blanks for regular keys this is what I have

 

LMA LF10P

Interchange Part Number: LF10P, 1006LPS21, P029, AA-3P, LF17-RH, LF19RP45, LF17P, AA3P, UP246, LW37P, PLF20, X157   SILCA RT2P JMA LFRO   Fits the following Land Rover: 109 (1984-1987), 110 (1984-1991), 88 (1984-1987), 90 (1985-1991), Santana (1985-1987) Lotus: Esprit Coupe (1991-1994) Maserati: Biturbo (1981-1985), Biturbo 244 (1986-1994), Biturbo 4.18-4.24 (1986-1994), Ghibli (1986-1994), Karif (1986-1994), Quattroporte (1976-1986), Shamal (1986-1994), Spider (1986-1994) Rover: 2000, 2200, 2300, 2400 (1982-1985), 2000, 2200, 2300, 2600, 3500 (1976-1981), 2600, 3500 (1982-1985)

 

 

 

[Vovchandr]

It's a wrap!

 

Took far longer than expected and was quite a PITA but many hours later it's done. 

 

My one advice is if you ever plan on doing this is do it with engine out or have the header off if possible. 

 

All my runners are individual runners and even though I started to try to take them off I remembered it would actually be more work in the end for me to proceed with taking them off. 

 

Happy in the end. A LOT better than the old job that was falling apart and had had foil as I guess part of design. 

[Vovchandr]

Rebuilt ITBs are finally back

 

 

Pretty much entirely rebuilt except face plate, venturi stacks and my IAC rail. New double springs throttle return, new FPR and all new components and actual manifold. 

 

Will hopefully tidy everything up next week and get to test it. 

 

 

[Vovchandr]

Outgassing of the new wrap was pretty serious. Had to quickly Google it to see that it's expected and normal. 

 

Got the car started. 

 

Good news. Rebuild FPR is at 40psi!

 

Bad news. sticky/Runaway throttle/rev hang issue is still present.

 

Quite disappointed that the rebuilt ITBs with the dual spring return and brand new throttle cable didn't resolve it. I'm sure it's something stupid too but I'm running out of ideas. Unfortunately it's not safe to drive in this condition. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Vovchandr

[JohnCh]

Can you do data logging with your ECU?  It would be interesting to see if the TPS position is changing as expected when this is happening or if anything wonky is showing with the air temp readings, air temp and AIC adjustment tables, or AFR.

 

-John   

[Vovchandr]

10 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

Can you do data logging with your ECU?  It would be interesting to see if the TPS position is changing as expected when this is happening or if anything wonky is showing with the air temp readings, air temp and AIC adjustment tables, or AFR.

 

-John   

 

I can try to datalog again. I had limited success in the past due to the dedicated 1998 computer that's required to run the software for Pectel. I recall I had success with live readings but not datalogging overall. 

 

I've just read through a 15 page thread of people with Omex ITB's on F20 motors in other 7's with a eerie similar issue of sticky throttle that they couldn't narrow down at all for multiple people

 

https://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topic/119831-megas-s2000-omex-throttle-bodies-throttle-cable/page/15/

 

One of the black holes I have in my troubleshooting is IAC and TPS. There was one post talking about the TPS Zero/auto zero and another as such

 

Quote

Perhaps the closed throttle TPS setting is too close to normal fully closed idle - assume you only get fuel shut off or retarded ignition when the TPS says the throttle is fully closed - could this threshold be adjusted or more retard applied at very low throttle openings in the rpm hang region?

 

 

I have unplugged the IAC at the sensor and unplugged the air lead entirely to see if it still sticks. It does

I have brand new throttle cable and shield for it to eliminate possibility of that causing hanging

It used to do it primarily warm/hot now it's doing it dead cold at startup.

 

I'll take the video tomorrow when I'm not waking up the neighbors with a loud revving 7 

[ashyers]

A couple of thoughts:

Did they stick at all on the bench? I suspect they didn't or you wouldn't have bolted 'em on :)!

 

Have you tried it w/o the throttle cable connected? If they are free then it seems like the cable is toast. Sometimes if exposed to heat the lined ones stick.

 

When it's revving up can you close the throttles to their stops by hand and get the idle under control?

 

It looks like you tried it with the IAC removed any more details there? If it's messed up (stuck open) it may cause the engine to rev up and behave like the throttles are open.

[Vovchandr]

Debating on removing the wiper motor assembly. I almost never use the windshield (aero setup) and from what I hear the wipers don't do a whole lot even when they are needed. 

 

I'd likely have the windshield covered with RainX and hope to avoid the rain.

 

Anybody use theirs? Anybody regret removing theirs? Whats the weight savings? 

[JohnCh]

I have used mine on tours and while they are feeble, they are better than nothing and do come in handy on early morning blats when condensation forms on the windscreen (not heated on my car).  That said, given you run aeroscreen and there is work to install the windscreen, how much extra work is there to install the wiper motor on those rare occasions when you may need it?  Maybe you could do some mods to make the R&R easier/quicker?  

 

-John 

[Vovchandr]

4 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

I have used mine on tours and while they are feeble, they are better than nothing and do come in handy on early morning blats when condensation forms on the windscreen (not heated on my car).  That said, given you run aeroscreen and there is work to install the windscreen, how much extra work is there to install the wiper motor on those rare occasions when you may need it?  Maybe you could do some mods to make the R&R easier/quicker?  

 

-John 

 

That's a thought. I was in a mindset that once I'd remove it I'd never put it back in. It seems a mild job at an hour and a half or so from what I've quickly found. Certainly not something that has to be permanent but as we all know any under the scuttle work is far harder than it has any right to be. 

[Pokey]

I've got a question about the idle situation borne of both ignorance and curiosity.  When the IAC is doing its thing, is it bypassing or operating the butterflies?  I'm wondering if the butterflies are moving during the runaway revs...

[JohnCh]

Looking at the various photos Vlad has posted here and elsewhere, it looks like the TBs have air bleed ports behind each butterfly that connect to a manifold, then the IAC opens/closes to adjust the amount of air bypassing the butterflies.  The part that confuses me is how do you sync the throttles?  If the air bleeds are linked, that's not an option.  The linkage under the TBs links each throttle shaft via heim joints.  Given this is under the TBs, it seems difficult/frustrating to adjust this way.  @Vovchandr is there an easier way to sync these that I'm missing?

 

 

Thansk,

John

[Vovchandr]

4 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

Looking at the various photos Vlad has posted here and elsewhere, it looks like the TBs have air bleed ports behind each butterfly that connect to a manifold, then the IAC opens/closes to adjust the amount of air bypassing the butterflies.  The part that confuses me is how do you sync the throttles?  If the air bleeds are linked, that's not an option.  The linkage under the TBs links each throttle shaft via heim joints.  Given this is under the TBs, it seems difficult/frustrating to adjust this way.  @Vovchandr is there an easier way to sync these that I'm missing?

 

 

Thansk,

John

 

You are correct in that IAC feeds the runners past the TB.

 

Borla/TWM told me this is unusual and not standard. I told them to please recreate it as it has worked for me in the past and I can always plug them if needed in the future.

 

Borla also told me they sync'ed the throttle bodies to the best of their ability but they might need some adjustments. Yes they all rotate at the same time with only one adjuster for WOT/Idle on the 2nd runner (in the picture above). The heim connections is where individual adjustments would be made. It doesn't bother me personally. Theoretically I'd start with the one furthest out and then go inwards to the first linkage.

 

Syncing them at idle? No idea, plug IAC feed? I'm far from an expert on ITB's. Likely source of my problems. I still have no idea how IAC works and interacts with ITBs as it sits. People not having IAC on their setups was a huge surprise to me, I thought it'd be standard. 

[JohnCh]

How do you adjust idle speed with that linkage?  I don't see a screw adjustment anywhere.  Is that not shown?  The issue (or part of the issue) may be down to funkiness in that throttle linkage.  I'd follow the steps @ashyers suggested.  Easiest first: when the issue presents itself, reach underneath and see if you can manually close the throttles.  Next try removing the throttle cable and see what happens.  Murphy's Law states that you might have multiple issues going on.  Occam's Razor does not apply to Se7ens.

 

-John

[Vovchandr]

11 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

How do you adjust idle speed with that linkage?  I don't see a screw adjustment anywhere.  Is that not shown?  The issue (or part of the issue) may be down to funkiness in that throttle linkage.  I'd follow the steps @ashyers suggested.  Easiest first: when the issue presents itself, reach underneath and see if you can manually close the throttles.  Next try removing the throttle cable and see what happens.  Murphy's Law states that you might have multiple issues going on.  Occam's Razor does not apply to Se7ens.

 

-John

 

John. Those are the two screws that rule all the throttle bodies Max and min. 

 

I have left those alone so far and only adjusted the throttle cable on the bottom. I get it to the tension where the car idles without an issue in as is condition.

 

There is a hollow rod with a nut which stops the cable shield on the one side. Turning that in or out adjust the tension enough to keep idle.

 

Should I not be doing that? Should I be using the idle screw on ITB's? Maybe this is the source of my issues.

 

However this is exactly what I did in my previous years of ownership and before rebuild and it ran fine for a while like that as well with just adjusting the cable.

 

Ran fun that is... until it didn't. 

 

I could try to mess with the isle screw and see what happens. I'll try to find the "0" setting on it to go back to if needed. 

 

 

 

[JohnCh]

Thanks Vlad.  I've never seen a set up like this.  That certainly doesn't mean it won't work or is wrong, but it raises questions given the odd behavior you've been seeing.  As I recall you were having heat related rpm changes before.  That can happen when the throttle cable and the throttle shroud expand from heat at different rates.  If the shroud expands more, then it has the net effect of tightening the throttle cable and increasing revs.  I would follow @ashyers advice and rule out the throttle cable first.  

 

-John

[Vovchandr]

2 hours ago, JohnCh said:

Thanks Vlad.  I've never seen a set up like this.  That certainly doesn't mean it won't work or is wrong, but it raises questions given the odd behavior you've been seeing.  As I recall you were having heat related rpm changes before.  That can happen when the throttle cable and the throttle shroud expand from heat at different rates.  If the shroud expands more, then it has the net effect of tightening the throttle cable and increasing revs.  I would follow @ashyers advice and rule out the throttle cable first.  

 

-John

 

  

20 hours ago, ashyers said:

A couple of thoughts:

Did they stick at all on the bench? I suspect they didn't or you wouldn't have bolted 'em on :)!

 

Have you tried it w/o the throttle cable connected? If they are free then it seems like the cable is toast. Sometimes if exposed to heat the lined ones stick.

 

When it's revving up can you close the throttles to their stops by hand and get the idle under control?

 

It looks like you tried it with the IAC removed any more details there? If it's messed up (stuck open) it may cause the engine to rev up and behave like the throttles are open.

 

 

I missed @ashyers reply earlier and have a plan of attack

 

1) I will video the situation to better show case what's happening

2) My throttle cable and housing are brand new just installed, but still will eliminate them from equation

3) I will potentially try to eliminate IAC either temporarily or permanently. As I understand it I have two ways currently. Either restrict the disconnected IAC vacuum chamber that goes to the runners to imitate the amount of air slightly open ITB's would produce, or plug it entirely and tune ITB's to be partially open at idle. I'm still not certain what sends input to IAC to start doing its thing. Is it active ECU controlled or passive response to vacuum? From what I briefly read online and seen on other models, most ITB setups do not utilize IACs. 

 

Notes:

Yes if the engine is revving and I push the throttle linkage into closed position by slight force, it brings it back down.

I've added another spring right now to the throttle returns to give them some physical persuasion to close shut

With the IAC disconnected the engine revs quite high due to unrestricted air intake. If I partially plug it with finger it controls it to some degree. 

 

 

[JohnCh]

The Pectel should control the IAC.  Does it have an electrical connector? 

 

I wonder if the butterflies are not designed to close completely under normal return spring pressure?  With a normal setup sans IAC, that's not an issue.  The butterflies need to allow some air through them to achieve idle.  However, with your set up that may not be the case.  The size of your IAC and the associated settings in the ECU may require complete closure.  Didn't you also mention that Borla made some comment about the state of your air bleeds prior to the rebuild?  I wonder if renewing them is allowing more air to enter when the IAC valve is open, thus making things more pronounced than before?

 

-John

[Vovchandr]

1 hour ago, JohnCh said:

The Pectel should control the IAC.  Does it have an electrical connector? 

 

I wonder if the butterflies are not designed to close completely under normal return spring pressure?  With a normal setup sans IAC, that's not an issue.  The butterflies need to allow some air through them to achieve idle.  However, with your set up that may not be the case.  The size of your IAC and the associated settings in the ECU may require complete closure.  Didn't you also mention that Borla made some comment about the state of your air bleeds prior to the rebuild?  I wonder if renewing them is allowing more air to enter when the IAC valve is open, thus making things more pronounced than before?

 

-John

 

It does have an electrical connector. 

 

The old ones and the new ones are set to be fully closed at 0 throttle. I believe that's intentional, but I'm not certain how would they expect these to work as is if IAC is not a standard setup. Then again maybe they adjusted them to be closed for me knowing that I have an IAC setup.

 

Maybe there is a handshake disagreement between when there is TPS is reading not quite 0 due to throttle sticking and ECU is sending signal for IAC to feed air? 

 

Either way I should be able to get further this weekend and going into next week. I'll get the ECU connected and partition more of the issue out.