1999 Birkin S3 (Last 5% of build)

[Jackal]

Location of seller: Calgary, AB

Willing to ship: No

Method of contact: PM or Text (403.909.8449)

Price: Negotiable/Trades

 

Description:

 

Recent life changes are forcing me to sell my beloved Beatrice. The end result is many assets need to be liquidated and divided up, but that leaves me with no vehicle at all. I therefore need to look at selling/trading Beatrice so that I still have locomotion. It really (really) breaks my heart to even contemplate this, but it is what it is.

 

Right off the bat I’ll list the build thread for here:

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/showthread.php?6935-Project-Beatrice-(1999-Birkin-S3)

 

The build thread is extensive and I have every receipt involved for the build. I have well into 40K$ into her, and had hoped that I can get about 32K$ Canadian (At todays dollar that's less than 25K$ US) out of her now, but I am open to reasonable offers as well. I need a vehicle too, so I’m considering trades, but only for vehicles that I can hopefully begin competing in Auto-x again while daily driving. I’ll add more to this add as the day progresses, but I am literally breaking up right now at the thought…. And I can’t be sobbing at work.

 

 

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l294/nivaguy/Beatrice%2006%202014/E5E6C1C4-B8B3-42AF-8DCC-53CB17A7D228_zpsuzw579vr.jpg

Edited March 5, 2015 by Jackal

[panamericano]

Duane,

 

You're breaking my heart, man. We all have our highs and lows, and I can chart most of mine through the cars around. Best wishes for the future, and I hope the car sells well.

[airboy808]

Wish this was in the states. Good luck with the sale and hope things go up for ya.

[Jackal]

Wish this was in the states. Good luck with the sale and hope things go up for ya.

 

I wish it was there too. lol. Part of my life changes may mean a relocation to the Seattle area. These cars are difficult to get across the border I hear. If anyone knows how this would be possible, I'd be more inclined to keep her.

[NVP66S]

I wish it was there too. lol. Part of my life changes may mean a relocation to the Seattle area. These cars are difficult to get across the border I hear. If anyone knows how this would be possible, I'd be more inclined to keep her.

 

Ummm... just a thought. If that's the reason you have to sell it, you might try getting a new title and registration instead of trying to import it.

[Jackal]

Ummm... just a thought. If that's the reason you have to sell it, you might try getting a new title and registration instead of trying to import it.

 

I'm not sure I'm fully following you there. It's not really the only reason I'm selling her, but certainly factors in.

 

I'm fairly certain that importing this car would limit it to track use only. I'm only just starting the research into the possibility of importing it to the States, so I'm only shooting from the hip based on very limited info as of yet.

 

If you mean I should look for a new Seven in Washington, then I think we are on the same page. Although it may take a while to get to that point again.

[wemtd]

I thought it was relatively painless to transport car parts (ie: remove engine/drivetrain), finish building south of the border and then go through the usual gyrations to get the car legally on the road in your state...

 

If not realistic I feel your pain.

[coffee break]

As I understand it, once a car project has been completed is cannot be reversed to be exported/imported and reassembled.

That said, I hope you will have a 7 in your future.

[Automoda]

Um. My VIN is a sticker. I could reregister it over and over no problem. They might catch on if it has a lot of rock chips and looks like it's seen the road though. If it were me I'd just drive it across the border and reregister it as a 65 Lotus 7. Canada would never know what happened to it. And yes. I always advocate for bypassing government whenever possible because I'm a rebel with a three-cornered-hat.

[jimrankin]

You might want to do some quick research. Getting cars into Canada is really tough ( that whole used and over 25 thing from what I understand) Here in the Us it's way more state by State as to what constitutes a "kit car" or used vehicle. Washington may be an OK thing as they seem pretty logical up there compared to places like NJ and a couple of other nightmare states I've seen documented on this site.

[carphoria]

Sent you a PM

[bigdog]

The first thing that the DMV in little Podunk Walla Walla Washington asked for when I brought my 7 from Europe was the customs papers showing that the car was exempt from DOT/EPA (it's a 1983 so meets the 25+ year old exception) They didn't even want to see my German reg papers nor the original British V5 document. So even in our small town of 35,000 out in wheat/wine country, The DMV had their game face on.

[Croc]

This is such a sad post to read about - I hope you find a way to keep your car Jackal

 

 

Just to clarify the import discussions - I have imported a few cars into the US lately and had to stop six other (over 25yo) imports I own and wanted to make as they did not qualify, so a brief run down of the rules.

 

- 25 years or older then Customs will not have an issue. Under 25 years and they will make you "Federalize" it - bring it up to US standards or get a manufacturer waiver that the car is identical as sold in the US market. Federalizing is US DOT marked glass, lights, etc, air bags, crash testing to US standards (6 or 8 cars required - cannot recall specific number), usual markings on chassis and parts, etc. Waivers are well known for Canada to US imports as the market essentially shares common manufacturing.

 

- EPA applies a 21 years or older threshold for making a car bring its emissions up to US standards. Over 21 years old there are no requirements to upgrade emissions.

 

- Even if a car is 25/21 years old it needs to be standard road car. No hotted up cars with custom engine mods, no race cars, no major body/engine modifications. If there are then you just violated how the over 25/21 year old rules are applied. I have had over 25yo cars rejected under the EPA regs (as applied by Customs) as they are modified from standard (standard unmodified body but mildly non-standard looking engine - no air con, different ignition, braided hoses and different carb). Old cars with modern engine transplants are not allowed by the EPA. Street rods/hot rods are either race cars under the import rules or the special interest classification for one off imports. Technically you then fall into import rules that require EPA pre-approval (I have been waiting over 12 months for the EPA to consider my application for one of these on one potential import) and different types of manufacturer certifications. A Birkin over 25 years old with a standard Zetec lump would look standard.

 

- If a car has been titled/registered in Canada and it is legally identified as a 1999 then game over as it would not be cost effective to Federalize it.

 

- While you could "deconstruct" a kit car back to roller by removing engine and transmission and then import it as a kit with a Manufacturers Statement of Origin (also sometimes referred to as a Manufacturers Certificate of Origin) that is legally a no go and I would gently remind people that making false statements on import paperwork is a US Federal crime. Once it is together the US law thinks it should stay together.

 

- However, as this post is not completely clear on all facts, this Birkin would be in a permissible area if it is a unfinished roller, pre-title/pre-reg in Canada and has an MCO as it technically would then fit the definition of a kit import where roller chassis is imported solely. Engine and transmission are completely independent. There have been documented issues on other kit car forums where someone bought a genuine roller kit in the UK and shipped it with the separate engine/transmission inside the same container. The US customs guys picked up on that real quick and put two and two together to cause issues.

 

- Don't think that you can slip one past US Customs. Every one of my vehicle shipments has been subject to physical inspection and scrutiny and mine were well documented 25 year old cars from a recognizable car company. You could get a highly intelligent, knowledgable and friendly car enthusiast Customs inspector or some newly hired amoebic dysentry that flunked summer school. I have experienced both and know which one I prefer but it is a lottery as to what you get for your import paperwork review. As is the way, on my last import I had to debate with some 23yo bimbo chick on why an early 1980s era car is standard even though it does not have air conditioning - my explanation that not all cars had air conditioning fitted at the time (i.e. it was an option) was extensively challenged for a month....

 

- Once you have successfully imported and you have your import approval paperwork you need to turn up at the DMV. Assuming this is a car and not a kit then you would need the import paperwork and the previous country title/registration to register it in the US. If no title or coming from a non-title country then you need to explore bonded titles, which I just did for one of my cars. If you a trying to register a roller kit self construction then you still need the customs paperwork on approved import, the MCO and all the usual forms to register in the state of your choice (assuming it is a sensible state like Washington).

 

- The above is applied whether you import in a container or trailer across the border although by all accounts trailering across the border is quicker as they are keen to process you, make you pay your fees and taxes and get you moving whereas containers get hung up in congestion in ports. Given your location and destination, trailering is a no brainer winner.

 

The rules are very complex and they are not applied evenly at all locations for import - US East Coast is generally the worst. Do your research in advance. I was lucky to engage one of the best importers who does all the major US west coast car collections which helped me learn what I need to know for the future imports and stopped me from making some very expensive mistakes. Some people roll the dice and go for it without meeting all criteria. It may work but if it does not then be prepared for a bundle of pain and cost.

 

Its probably not the best idea we debate legalities on public forum though but I hope this helps.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Croc
cleaning up text and adding search key word

[mrmustang]

I was getting ready to write up a similar dissertation, having been involved with the kit cobra market and kit cars in general since the early 80's, but you hit on everything I would have. Fantastic write up.....And general warning that the US and all DMV/MVS have their act together and are not stupid when it comes to these cars.

 

 

Bill S.

 

 

This is such a sad post to read about - I hope you find a way to keep your car Jackal

 

 

Just to clarify the import discussions - I have imported a few cars into the US lately and had to stop six other (over 25yo) imports I own and wanted to make as they did not qualify, so a brief run down of the rules.

 

- 25 years or older then Customs will not have an issue. Under 25 years and they will make you "Federalize" it - bring it up to US standards or get a manufacturer waiver that the car is identical as sold in the US market. Federalizing is US DOT marked glass, lights, etc, air bags, crash testing to US standards (6 or 8 cars required - cannot recall specific number), usual markings on chassis and parts, etc. Waivers are well known for Canada to US imports as the market essentially shares common manufacturing.

- EPA applies a 21 years or older threshold for making a car bring its emissions up to US standards. Over 21 years old there are no requirements to upgrade emissions.

- Even if a car is 25/21 years old it needs to be standard road car. No hotted up cars with custom engine mods, no race cars, no major body/engine modifications. If there are then you just violated how the over 25/21 year old rules are applied. I have had over 25yo cars rejected under the EPA regs (as applied by Customs) as they are modified from standard (standard unmodified body but mildly non-standard looking engine - no air con, different ignition, braided hoses and different carb). Old cars with modern engine transplants are not allowed by the EPA. Street rods/hot rods are either race cars under the import rules or the special interest classification for one off imports. Technically you then fall into import rules that require EPA pre-approval (I have been waiting over 12 months for the EPA to consider my application for one of these on one potential import) and different types of manufacturer certifications. A Birkin over 25 years old with a standard Zetec lump would look standard.

- If a car has been titled/registered in Canada and it is legally identified as a 1999 then game over as it would not be cost effective to Federalize it.

- While you could "deconstruct" a kit car back to roller by removing engine and transmission and then import it as a kit with a Manufacturers Statement of Origin (also sometimes referred to as a Manufacturers Certificate of Origin) that is legally a no go and I would gently remind people that making false statements on import paperwork is a US Federal crime. Once it is together the US law thinks it should stay together.

- However, as this post is not completely clear on all facts, this Birkin would be in a permissible area if it is a unfinished roller, pre-title/pre-reg in Canada and has an MCO as it technically would then fit the definition of a kit import where roller chassis is imported solely. Engine and transmission are completely independent. There have been documented issues on other kit car forums where someone bought a genuine roller kit in the UK and shipped it with the separate engine/transmission inside the same container. The US customs guys picked up on that real quick and put two and two together to cause issues.

- Don't think that you can slip one past US Customs. Every one of my vehicle shipments has been subject to physical inspection and scrutiny and mine were well documented 25 year old cars from a recognizable car company. You could get a highly intelligent, knowledgable and friendly car enthusiast Customs inspector or some newly hired amoebic dysentry that flunked summer school. I have experienced both and know which one I prefer but it is a lottery as to what you get for your import paperwork review. As is the way, on my last import I had to debate with some 23yo bimbo chick on why an early 1980s era car is standard even though it does not have air conditioning - my explanation that not all cars had air conditioning fitted at the time (i.e. it was an option) was extensively challenged for a month....

- Once you have successfully imported and you have your import approval paperwork you need to turn up at the DMV. Assuming this is a car and not a kit then you would need the import paperwork and the previous country title/registration to register it in the US. If no title or coming from a non-title country then you need to explore bonded titles, which I just did for one of my cars. If you a trying to register a roller kit self construction then you still need the customs paperwork on approved import, the MCO and all the usual forms to register in the state of your choice (assuming it is a sensible state like Washington).

- The above is applied whether you import in a container or trailer across the border although by all accounts trailering across the border is quicker as they are keen to process you, make you pay your fees and taxes and get you moving whereas containers get hung up in congestion in ports. Given your location and destination, trailering is a no brainer winner.

 

The rules are very complex and they are not applied evenly at all locations for import - US East Coast is generally the worst. Do your research in advance. I was lucky to engage one of the best importers who does all the major US west coast car collections which helped me learn what I need to know for the future imports and stopped me from making some very expensive mistakes. Some people roll the dice and go for it without meeting all criteria. It may work but if it does not then be prepared for a bundle of pain and cost.

 

Its probably not the best idea we debate legalities on public forum though but I hope this helps.

[NVP66S]

I'm not sure I'm fully following you there. It's not really the only reason I'm selling her, but certainly factors in.

 

I'm fairly certain that importing this car would limit it to track use only. I'm only just starting the research into the possibility of importing it to the States, so I'm only shooting from the hip based on very limited info as of yet.

 

After reading Croc's excellent post, I still think there is a straightforward and legal way to register your one example, as long as it has never been registered in Canada, for the simple reason that it's not a finished build yet. That is, you (as a private citizen) partially assembled it in Canada, then finished assembling it in the US. That is a concise, specific question that the various regulatory agencies can answer before you attempt to take it across the border. They may say yes or no, or they may specify a maximum % built before moving the project.

[mrmustang]

After reading Croc's excellent post, I still think there is a straightforward and legal way to register your one example, as long as it has never been registered in Canada, for the simple reason that it's not a finished build yet. That is, you (as a private citizen) partially assembled it in Canada, then finished assembling it in the US. That is a concise, specific question that the various regulatory agencies can answer before you attempt to take it across the border. They may say yes or no, or they may specify a maximum % built before moving the project.

 

With motor and transmission installed, running or not, it cannot be legally exported to the US.

 

100% disassembled, without a drivetrain, it "might" (M-I-G-H-T) be able to be legally imported in to the US.

 

If the motor and transmission are in the same shipment, the car cannot be legally imported in to the US.

 

Trans Canada will be more of a pain to deal with than US Customs if the car is 100% disassembled and ship to the US as "parts".......

 

 

That is the bottom line.

 

Bill S.

[Sean]

It is important to distinguish between state requirements and federal requirements. Importing is federal, and titling and registering are state.

 

According to what I was told on a phone call to an NHTSA representative (took some doing to track down the right person!), once an engine or gearbox has been installed into your assembly of car parts, that assembly at that moment became a car, forevermore - it's a bit like the definition of the word "virgin". Even if the engine and/or gearbox (or any other parts) are subsequently removed, the assembly will remain a car in the eyes of the applicable branches of the federal government, and cannot be legally imported into the U.S.A. Or so it was explained to me by an NHTSA guy.

 

Croc's write-up covers all the key points, and agrees with everything I have learned from all genuine sources of authority or experience. There is a lot of misinformation being propagated on the internet and beyond, so it is important to verify any information as being true and correct for your situation before proceeding. I understand that getting something wrong after the fact in these matters might prove to be very costly.

 

Best of luck, sir.

[Jackal]

Hi All, I'm sorry to have been away so long, it has been a very busy week for me.

 

Firstly I'd like to say thanks for all the interest and the help to get the car to the states. The legal importation was one half of the equation, unfortunately the other half is that I am in the process of getting separated and have no other vehicle once the common one gets liquidated. Unfortunately the (now) Ex has also lost her job do to the low barrel price, and will be looking to liquidate the other car she owns, and has been loaning me. Of the three vehicles we had together, She owned one outright, I owned one outright, and we shared the tow vehicle.

 

All this left me with a couple of choices. I had to choose between buying a cheap vehicle that could tow the Birkin, and the trailer to tow her where I need to go with future moves, Or sell her and get a vehicle that I can daily drive and hopefully race as well.

 

I put her up for sale asking a really high price comparatively to the other two that are on the market in Canada currently, especially when you consider there is still work to be done, and the car isn't currently road legal. On the 7th, a man came to see her and offered my asking price for her. I took his offer and she was gone that night. I know she has gone to a good home; one of a collector and she will be cared for.

 

I know that I will build one again when my life has sorted out this latest bit of craziness. When I do, I know more of what to expect and will be more prepared to do an even better job on it. For the time being I have fallen back into a gently loved 2008 BMW 135is, which I can drive during the cold winters here, and because it's newer than 2006, the importation of it should be relatively easy when/if I make the move.

 

Thanks again to a wonderful community, and all the help you all have offered to me. Without many of you, I wouldn't have gotten as far as I had with my beloved Beatrice. Next time I build, I''l have more questions and know I have a great support group in you all here.

[XR4Bill]

Hi Duane,

 

sorry to hear about your current situation. I hope all turns out well for you both.

All the very best to you in the future.

Did the car stay in Alberta?

 

Bill

[trykeman]

Thanks for the info. I believe I have a bit of due diligence to due.

From what I gather, it does look like a stock 25 yr old Super 7 could make it through the hoops.

Have not found anything yet

 

Thanks