Auto repair labor market

[Bruce K]

Time for another post in this thread.  Finally, I heard some good personal car news.  I am still self-employed and earning money in my seventies, in exchange for my wife's imprimatur regarding my small collection of three sports cars.  Well, I've had work all spring and summer, but except for a few brief weeks with my Alfa 4C, I've had ZERO sports cars available for use - all of last winter's projects have dragged on ad nauseum, and then my Alfa lost its DCT tranny in mid-summer and is now also under repair.  I just heard that my Porsche 935 tribute should be ready by next Friday, and a similar finish date is projected for the 4C.  The Lola T70 Spyder, which remained in Georgia for a total rebuild, will likely be ready around the end of September, but my daughter is getting married in mid-October, and the wife has forbade any long-distance road trips in proximity of the big date.  And I am loathe to have the car transported without examining all the work first, so I have no idea when I will climb behind the wheel of that monster.

 

It might seem like I bit off more than a reasonable mouthful when I outlined the projects, but that is not necessarily the case.  Fate applied vice grips to the Atlanta, Georgia labor market for high-performance and racing mechanics, right in the middle of my Lola project.  As a consequence, my well-regarded, second-generation shop lost every mechanic to the allure of self-employment.  My proprietor warned them of the hazards, and the business they collaborated to form is already shut down and closed.  But it has taken several months for my proprietor to rebuild his staff, and my Lola project will have stretched out to a year, compared to the original projection of 6 months.  The 935 is under repair locally, and was nearly complete about 6 weeks ago, awaiting only its BBS E26 magnesium wheels from refinishing.  That work was rejected, and a shop found to rescue the wheels.  Fortunately, they now are now so gorgeous, I am tempted to mount them on the family room wall, so perhaps all's well that ends well.

 

It looks like I will have cars in advance of the fall color tours, but likely no track days until 2024.  C'est la vie!

 

(Car pix from happier days.  The Lola is actually a sister car of mine.  The brake cooling ducts in my car are not blocked by auxiliary lights, as is the case with the car below:)

 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Bruce K

[Croc]

8 hours ago, Bruce K said:

It might seem like I bit off more than a reasonable mouthful when I outlined the projects, but that is not necessarily the case.  Fate applied vice grips to the Atlanta, Georgia labor market for high-performance and racing mechanics, right in the middle of my Lola project.  As a consequence, my well-regarded, second-generation shop lost every mechanic to the allure of self-employment. 

 

 

Its not just Georgia - same for WA, CO, MI, NJ, VT, and MA.  The traditional training path for mechanics via the auto dealer networks no longer exists as most mechanical service on new cars today is plug into a computer, take off old component and put on new component.  Consequently, the dealer mechanics are barely equipped to jerk off, let alone truly diagnose an issue on a car.  Plus the young millenials who work in dealer service shops have no desire to go into specialty mechanics for high-end Bruce toys as it is too much hard work.  

 

Most of my projects ended up on the slow burner for the same reason.  Not much I can do other than be patient. I have enormous sympathy for the business owners who are juggling a world of pain right now.  My relationship with them is all good so they are upfront and honest with me, so I give patience in return.  One CO business I use is going to classic road rallys and shows and offering $250K+ plus relocation reimbursement to any experienced mechanic he finds.  Once guys realize there is good money to be had then the labor supply issue will be solved. 

 

Cost issue for Bruce in the meantime as he pays a six figure number for his daughter's wedding.   Does your daughter need help picking an expensive wedding venue?  I could curate a very high quality wine list for the event that I know she would love.  Daddy is worth squillions so it should not hurt too much.   Just want to help you know. 

[speedwagon]

1 hour ago, Croc said:

 

 

Its not just Georgia - same for WA, CO, MI, NJ, VT, and MA.  The traditional training path for mechanics via the auto dealer networks no longer exists as most mechanical service on new cars today is plug into a computer, take off old component and put on new component.  Consequently, the dealer mechanics are barely equipped to jerk off, let alone truly diagnose an issue on a car.  Plus the young millenials who work in dealer service shops have no desire to go into specialty mechanics for high-end Bruce toys as it is too much hard work.  

 

Most of my projects ended up on the slow burner for the same reason.  Not much I can do other than be patient. I have enormous sympathy for the business owners who are juggling a world of pain right now.  My relationship with them is all good so they are upfront and honest with me, so I give patience in return.  One CO business I use is going to classic road rallys and shows and offering $250K+ plus relocation reimbursement to any experienced mechanic he finds.  Once guys realize there is good money to be had then the labor supply issue will be solved. 

 

Cost issue for Bruce in the meantime as he pays a six figure number for his daughter's wedding.   Does your daughter need help picking an expensive wedding venue?  I could curate a very high quality wine list for the event that I know she would love.  Daddy is worth squillions so it should not hurt too much.   Just want to help you know. 

 

[speedwagon]

I screwed up this post showing that I am not qualified to be a modern stealership maniac.  but Crock I wish you had shared this tidbit to us before I bought 26lbs of "see jane run" worthless chota manuals in order to work on my hybrid highlander.  But on the bright side all this "factory" info will soon become hacked knowledge and the unhappy auto workers will soon learn how to set up their own mini production lines to produce "specialty" cars. Think this may already happening in the electric category.  Why buy from the bandits when you can order the components direct from alley ba ba?

[slowdude]

We struggle to find qualified students to go through OEM training, where we literally pay for everything except room and board. You can come out and write your ticket at a dealership.

 

I fear (and I am still young, in my early 30s), that many younger than I are too fixated on the "get rich quick hustle grindset" mentality I see permeating social media, precluding a long setup for a successful well earning career.

 

Back to caterhams though, it's been a bit of a nightmare to find a good caterham shop in the metro NYC area. Valves should be in today, then bringing to the shop this afternoon, hopefully the head will get back together this week, then tested out the week after for the 10/15 date.

[MV8]

An interesting look at some of the younger generation can be had with the Netflix short series "Snowflake Mountain". Bring an open mind and a thick skin. Kind of a like watching summer camp for bearded 20-somethings and camp counselors with no people skills.

 

My mom just replaced all her major appliances for a few grand including the dishwasher. They were charging $170 to install it. She called me because they could not do it because it was hard wired instead of being plugged into an outlet so I installed it.

 

 

 

[Vovchandr]

This is on a verge of being political and even if we want to go into that world, it should be a whole another thead

[MV8]

What is the basis for these assumptions? 

[Bruce K]

@Vovchandr - No to be argumentative, but what is alleged by @speedwagon, @MV8, @slowdude and @Croc involves economic fact, not political opinion.  Is it a fact that insufficient numbers of Americans are seeking careers in high-paying, hands-on industries like auto repair, HVAC, plumbing, electrical, skilled carpentry and more?  Is it a fact that wage inflation is being driven by this scarcity, and affecting everyone?  All available evidence points resoundingly to a response of "Yes!"  This includes the anecdotal evidence of individual employers like myself.  When I advertise my $25 per hour jobs for carpet cleaning technicians, between 40% and 50% of the respondents have earned college degrees in race relations, government rule compliance, psychology of deviant behavior and so forth.  Those degrees are investments, just like I've invested in real estate, service trucks, steam cleaning equipment and so on.  However, those jobs are scarce and the degrees are earning no return.  I believe our culture needs to reassess the prestige and importance we associate with these degrees.  I am a great fan of lifelong education, but not intense, expensive college training that instills false hope and unmarketable skills.  As a society, we should surround hands-on careers with similar or greater importance and prestige, so more young people can get to work and support themselves.  This may result in the immediate and tragic unemployment of millions of mom and dads currently supporting basement kids, but somehow, I believe this adaptive senior generation will survive the challenge.

 

To@Crocthe economic savant - The excellent shop currently rebuilding my Lola managed to lure back one employee from the earlier mass exodus.  He was the best of the group, and has proven essential in maintaining operations through the dire times of labor scarcity.  However, the proprietor of the business had to guarantee an annual wage increase of more than $25,000 and full payment of all college costs, as the employee has decided to later seek employment in healthcare.  All this money requires no extra work from the employee.  And all the other new hires are being paid at similarly elevated rates.  As a result of labor scarcity and expense, the shop has had to turn away profitable work, and raise its hourly repair rate by nearly 30%.  Guess who pays for this inflation?  Check your local mirror for candidates.

 

Is it true a CO repair shop is offering $5,000 per week plus up-front relocation expense for experienced mechanics???  I should have attended the College of Car Repair!

 

To@Crocthe wiseacre - I am not a "squillionaire" - not even a billionaire, even as these become as common as chestnuts in the vicinity of fireplaces.  And I narrowly avoided a six-figure wedding, despite my daughter.  I made the essential error of telling her she could choose any location desired for her reception, depending on the upbringing we had provided to temper her tastes.  Instead, she required only about three nanoseconds to select the area's most voluptuous venue, dooming me to egregious expense.  It was only because my wife assumed the duties of wedding planner that I escaped that six-figure total, and possible need to sell a car, oil painting, sculpture, remaining child, or various body parts.  God bless the practice of marrying up!  And - weirdly - I am still proud that I am giving my daughter this massive sendoff.  After my father-in-law paid for our wedding (37 years ago), I made it my purpose to do the same for my daughter.  It appears I will succeed, despite the attempts of my sports cars to intervene and abscond with all my money.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Bruce K

[Bruce K]

@Croc -  I forgot to endorse your observations regarding the sole ability of dealership mechanics to "remove and replace".  Check this:  On the way home from the grocery store, one of the control units in my Alfa Romeo 4C shut down 3 of 6 tranny gears.  I took it to the first dealer.  Turns out my trans got low on oil because a gasket case seal had developed a leak.  Cost of repair:  $12,000, including a full transmission replacement!!!  Of course, I exploded.  After all nearby displays were re-erected and the staff got up off the floor, they explained that Stellantis does not recommend opening the transmission for any reason, no matter how minor the problem.   This was confirmed by several other dealers.  Thus, a leaky seal costs $12,000 to repair.  A single cracked gear - $12,000.  A baulky synchro - $12,000.  You get the picture.  Nobody has been trained anywhere by corporate to open these units.  As these cars age, I expect to hear more frequent complaints regarding this training deficiency from other unfortunate owners.  Myself?  I started digging.  I began with transmission manufacturers like Tremec who build DCT's - who can rebuild them?  I continued with various Alfa suppliers, until finally, Alfa9 Supply told me of a single-tech garage, whose head mechanic worked at Tremec during the days, designing the Maserati MC20 tranny and collaborating on the C8 unit.  Unbelievably, his single-car garage was located not more than 20 miles from my home!  I got the repair, plus a heavy-duty Quaiffe LS diff, competition clutch pack, reinforced 3rd gear, fluid change AND full readjustment of all transmission parameters for ONE-HALF the dealership cost!  But I am not the ordinary purchaser, so think about all the less experienced, less resourceful, typical consumers - a $6,000 open wound in their wallets!

 

But this is why I am keeping the car:

 

[Vovchandr]

Again, not getting into this discussion in this thread. Start another one if you want. 

[Croc]

 

Didn't think I was being political, just bemoaning the lack of qualified mechanics skilled to work on specialty cars outside of the regular dealer network.  I don't mind them being paid a lot - they deserve it given some of the oil leaks my money pits can produce. 

 

Any last humorous digs at Bruce about his daughter's wedding costs before we return to chatting about the other cars that are not se7ens that we all own?

 

 

[panamericano]

Another huge factor is that so many shops will only hired "qualified" techs.  There is no apprentice, journeyman, master pathway.  And most of the "qualified" people I would not call good journeymen.  Just a handful of true masters left.  I feel very fortunate to have been using one for over 30 years.

 

At the last place I worked, the shop's pathway had stopped 20+ years ago.  All the supervisors and good mechanics there had started when they had an apprentice program.  American business is short sighted about the future in many areas.  Only this quarter matters.  Maybe we do need a poli/gripe thread.  Sound like a bunch of ole grouches.

[Marek]

On that point, does anyone know of shops willing to take on apprentices in the northeast or mid-atlantic?

 

I've come to be friends with a mechanic who graduated from the High Performance program at New England Tech, was scooped up by the BMW STEP program and spent the obligatory two years at a BMW/Aston Martin shop before joining an independent.  He now has his own shop and is doing well.  But I find, and by his own admission, the current training paths have their limitations when it comes to classic and specialty cars.

 

At the same time, a nephew has just graduated from aircraft mechanic school.  His entire class had solid offers from airlines three months before graduation.  Talking with an acquaintance who owns an aircraft maintenance business in NE, he will gladly take these graduates on as apprentices - though he struggles to entice them with the same glamour the airlines spin.

 

I don't see that willingness in the automotive industry.  I know another talented young mechanic working on classic and sports cars - entirely self and mentor taught and with the discipline and curiosity to succeed - who is hesitant to take the certification route as he doesn't see that it helps him become part of the next generation of master classic car mechanics.  Of recent he has talked of buying a ticket to the UK and seeing if he can find a shop that will take him on.

 

Like so much of the rest of the economy, the specialty auto industry is in a major transition none of us can predict what the outcome will look like.  I can only be certain there will be people whom, through some combination of luck or foresight, will see the opportunity in change, take some risks, and become the industry winners the rest of us will talk about in the future.  God-Speed to them and send me their contact information.

[JohnCh]

I've moved the lengthy discussion above on auto repair labor market that started in the Other Cars of USA7s Members thread to one dedicated to the subject.

[slowdude]

48 minutes ago, Marek said:

On that point, does anyone know of shops willing to take on apprentices in the northeast or mid-atlantic?

 

I've come to be friends with a mechanic who graduated from the High Performance program at New England Tech, was scooped up by the BMW STEP program and spent the obligatory two years at a BMW/Aston Martin shop before joining an independent.  He now has his own shop and is doing well.  But I find, and by his own admission, the current training paths have their limitations when it comes to classic and specialty cars.

 

At the same time, a nephew has just graduated from aircraft mechanic school.  His entire class had solid offers from airlines three months before graduation.  Talking with an acquaintance who owns an aircraft maintenance business in NE, he will gladly take these graduates on as apprentices - though he struggles to entice them with the same glamour the airlines spin.

 

I don't see that willingness in the automotive industry.  I know another talented young mechanic working on classic and sports cars - entirely self and mentor taught and with the discipline and curiosity to succeed - who is hesitant to take the certification route as he doesn't see that it helps him become part of the next generation of master classic car mechanics.  Of recent he has talked of buying a ticket to the UK and seeing if he can find a shop that will take him on.

 

Like so much of the rest of the economy, the specialty auto industry is in a major transition none of us can predict what the outcome will look like.  I can only be certain there will be people whom, through some combination of luck or foresight, will see the opportunity in change, take some risks, and become the industry winners the rest of us will talk about in the future.  God-Speed to them and send me their contact information.

Step program is a good program but a lot of the guys go back to dealerships where service writers/advisors need training.

 

The motorcycle market is even harder. We are paying $2,500 a head for a tech to go to a dealership after the STEP classes. Very hard to find talent out there. Combine it with a dealer network that can't get out of its own way (realistic estimates, charging full pop on parts instead of working with the customer to build a dealership base), and you get a lot of turnover.

 

 

[Bruce K]

 

 

@slowdude - You said you were looking for Caterham service in NY.  Did you try Time Machines?  Their website is https://timemachineauto.com/  Time Machine never performed any work for me, but they did provide parts and (I believe) service to my last Caterham before I bought it.  That car was the most beautiful Super Seven I have ever personally seen, and actually won an award for me at a concours, the single such automotive attainment in my lifetime. While I was searching to buy a Caterham, I had the proprietor quote a new one, and his price was precisely in line.  Nice guy, too.  This was a few years back now, and his name eludes me, so can't help you there.

 

Here's a few images of that gorgeous Caterham.  I do not believe there are any additional carbon fiber components available than were already mounted on the car.  When I first laid eyes on it, I told the owner it was a work of art, he should keep it, drain the fluids and mount it on the living room wall:

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Bruce K

[slowdude]

10 minutes ago, Bruce K said:

 

 

@slowdude - You said you were looking for Caterham service in NY.  Did you try Time Machines?  Their website is https://timemachineauto.com/  Time Machine never performed any work for me, but they did provide parts and (I believe) service to my last Caterham before I bought it.  That car was the most beautiful Super Seven I have ever personally seen, and actually won an award for me at a concours, the single such automotive attainment in my lifetime. While I was searching to buy a Caterham, I had the proprietor quote a new one, and his price was precisely in line.  Nice guy, too.  This was a few years back now, and his name eludes me, so can't help you there.

 

Here's a few images of that gorgeous Caterham.  I do not believe there are any additional carbon fiber components available than were already mounted on the car.  When I first laid eyes on it, I told the owner it was a work of art, he should keep it, drain the fluids and mount it on the living room wall:

 

I was on the fence with Greg, problem is he is 6 hours from me. I can't pop into the shop and check on the work.

 

The shop I found in greater NYC area is predominantly a Lotus Elise shop, but knows the K series. It's been really touch and go but it seems more of an oldschool shop where I needed to check in and prod. 

 

The prodding is starting to work, engine should hopefully be back together this week. (Hopefully). 

[Bruce K]

25 minutes ago, slowdude said:

I was on the fence with Greg, problem is he is 6 hours from me. I can't pop into the shop and check on the work.

 

The shop I found in greater NYC area is predominantly a Lotus Elise shop, but knows the K series. It's been really touch and go but it seems more of an oldschool shop where I needed to check in and prod. 

 

The prodding is starting to work, engine should hopefully be back together this week. (Hopefully). 

Yes, you are like me - you want to have some driving time yet this season.  I totally see your point - it would never be convenient to stop in and check on progress, which is a big advantage.  I let the shop in Georgia (I am in Michigan) rebuild my Lola, but I heard from several individuals, plus all internet sources, that these guys have been great for two generations.  In fact, the fellow who sold me the car recommended them.  And the GA shop knew my car, when for every other mechanic in the world it would be a learning experience.  But problems may yet develop, irrespective of all my research, and I am 12 hours distant.  

 

Regarding local shops, I am sorry to report that proximity is no guarantee of success.  I was once attempting to rebuild a Marcos GT.  I took the V6 motor and all my new parts, sourced with great difficulty in the pre-internet days, down to a well-regarded local repair shop.  Almost a year later, they returned only a majority of the parts, loose in a single large box, weeks before declaring bankruptcy.  I sold it as a project car, and have not included it in my signature because I never got to drive it, except into my shop.

 

Here's some images of the same car, though not my example.  Jem Marcos was responsible for a beautiful design.  Very nearly the price of an XKE at that time, but much bittier and with a far more pedestrian powerplant.  The performance and sultry curves were similar, though:

 

[wdb]

My most recent experiences slot in pretty well with the general consensus here. I had my Porsche 996 engine rebuilt by Flat Six Innovations in Georgia. The main man there, Jake Raby, is extremely fussy and will only work with a handful of shops nationwide to remove/install/break in their engines. I am fortunate to have one of them in my general area. But the stories coming out of FSI are a bit dire. Finding qualified mechanical skills is all but impossible. In addition the parts situation is not good; quality has gone down even on the Porsche labeled stuff, and availability continues to diminish as well. They have taken to making their own parts (in conjunction with LN Engineering) because of those issues.

 

Rebuilding Porsche transaxles is difficult due to parts availability and the need for specialized tools. Only a few shops in the country can be counted on for quality work. At least those exist!

 

I have been harping about the increasing gap between skilled labor and college educated labor for many many many years. @Bruce K has already done the topic good justice so I won't go on about it myself other than to say, "hear hear."  There needs to be far more respect given to skilled craftspeople of all sorts. And the $ need to be there to attract people towards those paths and away from what has largely become the diploma mill college system. 

 

In terms of the increased costs for skilled labor, I am ALL FOR IT. Charge me more! Allow those skilled artists to make a good living! But ensure that I am getting good, quality workmanship in return. I will gladly spend my money on people who are proud of their work and stand behind it.