Croc Posted December 28, 2022 Author Share Posted December 28, 2022 40 minutes ago, MV8 said: Looks like it's all there but awfully expensive for a basket case. Is it an original chassis? I'm not sure it is - a few things don't look right? Needs something to give it a price premium but the chassis looks too far gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S1Steve Posted December 29, 2022 Share Posted December 29, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Croc said: Is it an original chassis? I'm not sure it is - a few things don't look right? Needs something to give it a price premium but the chassis looks too far gone? I’m not an expert on Lotus chassis tags and what’s original or not. But I do know with what looks like serious front right chassis and pickup point problems. You have to ask yourself if you’re up for serious fabrication. Then I wonder how my brazing skills are, I would answer “ They Stink”..😂😂 Edited December 29, 2022 by S1Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MV8 Posted December 29, 2022 Share Posted December 29, 2022 (edited) Agreed (though I'm sure with a half-day of practice your brazing would be excellent. I prefer a rose bud tip). For comparison, there was a complete, still assembled/rolling S3 on the San Francisco craigs list a few months ago asking $7k. I half expected to see a utube video of it being driven around a yard after a weekend of tinkering. Edited December 29, 2022 by MV8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das76 Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 (edited) So the last 5 cars on BaT have all gone ‘Reserve not met’. Slowing market ? Selling in winter ? Unrealistic Reserves ? although I’d guess winter was a good time so people can work on them before spring? Edited December 30, 2022 by das76 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted December 31, 2022 Share Posted December 31, 2022 My Caterham sale went well. It did not meet reserve while offered on Pcarmarket (Croc warned me about this site), but I resumed my Hemmings ad immediately after the weeklong auction ended, and Hemmings produced several offers. Neither Hagerty nor Pcarmarket provided any serious bidders. The only bidders who offered cash were from Hemmings. My Caterham was advertised for $50,000 and ultimately sold for $53,500. If you would like to see my 2010 Caterham R400 ad in order to compare my ex-car to other Sevens in which you are interested, my ad is still posted (though marked "SOLD") under Cars for Sale" in this forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmustang Posted December 31, 2022 Share Posted December 31, 2022 12 hours ago, Bruce K said: My Caterham sale went well. It did not meet reserve while offered on Pcarmarket (Croc warned me about this site), but I resumed my Hemmings ad immediately after the weeklong auction ended, and Hemmings produced several offers. Neither Hagerty nor Pcarmarket provided any serious bidders. The only bidders who offered cash were from Hemmings. My Caterham was advertised for $50,000 and ultimately sold for $53,500. If you would like to see my 2010 Caterham R400 ad in order to compare my ex-car to other Sevens in which you are interested, my ad is still posted (though marked "SOLD") under Cars for Sale" in this forum. Direct link to Bruce's old car: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted December 31, 2022 Author Share Posted December 31, 2022 22 hours ago, das76 said: So the last 5 cars on BaT have all gone ‘Reserve not met’. Slowing market ? Selling in winter ? Unrealistic Reserves ? although I’d guess winter was a good time so people can work on them before spring? Its not just sevens. Other marques have shown signs of slowing - I track a few cars on my wish list. However, buyers slow much quicker than sellers so the prices are trending down but there are so few sales to really understand exactly how much. Definitely right car and right buyer will produce a top sale result. The winter effect is real but its more from sellers not bothering to sell as they cannot get the car out for a test drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdude Posted January 1, 2023 Share Posted January 1, 2023 21 hours ago, Croc said: Its not just sevens. Other marques have shown signs of slowing - I track a few cars on my wish list. However, buyers slow much quicker than sellers so the prices are trending down but there are so few sales to really understand exactly how much. Definitely right car and right buyer will produce a top sale result. The winter effect is real but its more from sellers not bothering to sell as they cannot get the car out for a test drive. Carvana/Carmax are big indicators for the used car market. If they're buying, the OEMs assume customer demand is strong. I've been keeping an eye on late model Lotus/German cars. Given the stock market performance, these two may be looking to jettison inventory they have bulked up on by lowering prices. Less inventory carrying costs = reduced margin erosion for these big brands. Customer demand has subsided due to interest rate hikes (no shock), so overall the broader market is cooling. Coming back to 7's-> they're very similar to the high end motorcycle market. They're unnecessary to the majority of the population, expensive and impractical. In theory, the buyers of 7s will remain hungry for these vehicles due to the niche nature of the vehicles. I can say that during the last recession, expensive motorcycle sales remained flat. I'd say the average 7's buyer has some form of higher education, thus being more financially successful in a "traditional" sense. Of course there are outliers, but the barrier to entry in the 7 community is quite high. I certainly wouldnt be in it if the GBP did not crash to historic lows, and I grabbed maybe 95% of what I had been looking for a year/year and a half. People who want 7's will buy them. If you have 35k cash to buy a 7, you're doing pretty good in my book to buy a 7. Using the comparison to the motorcycle market (niche, expensive, impractical, but a riot), there is definitely a seasonality curve to the 7 prices, bulk up of vehicles in spring, tapering of sales by sept/oct. I am trying to put together a financial model based off of BaT data, which in theory could predict the price variations we would see from seasonality. When I've got it to a point where it's ready to be tested I'll toss it to all of you. If sales struggle in spring of 2023, and the used car market unloads excess inventory, our 7's may not be worth as much as we'd hope to be able to resell them for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 1, 2023 Author Share Posted January 1, 2023 1 hour ago, slowdude said: I am trying to put together a financial model based off of BaT data, which in theory could predict the price variations we would see from seasonality. When I've got it to a point where it's ready to be tested I'll toss it to all of you. I did that years ago but the data was not there then. I started by using ask prices off for sale ads found. Data is still not really there as the dollar standard deviation off a curvilinear regression remains too high to be predictable for a lay audience on USA7s. Another way of saying that - the dollar variation is similar value to the dollar seasonality range. If the data does not have enough bulk in a given year then it needs to be sufficient over a longer period. I knew an actuarial degree would come in handy one day! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowdude Posted January 1, 2023 Share Posted January 1, 2023 9 minutes ago, Croc said: I did that years ago but the data was not there then. I started by using ask prices off for sale ads found. Data is still not really there as the dollar standard deviation off a curvilinear regression remains too high to be predictable for a lay audience on USA7s. Another way of saying that - the dollar variation is similar value to the dollar seasonality range. If the data does not have enough bulk in a given year then it needs to be sufficient over a longer period. I knew an actuarial degree would come in handy one day! YOURE SPEAKING MY LANGUAGE! I'm far from an actuary, the only thing this is giving me so far is a run rate / average sale count / average listing. All I can illustrate with some certainty is buying season, ie when in theory a 7 should be listed. I started going through and looking at how long the cars are listed for until time of sale. Next step might be price sensitivity- x% or dollar drop until time of sale. Again, this is suuuper elementary compared to your knowledge. In suppose in theory we could look at per period average sale price. Part of the issue as you have noted is quality of data. How do I quantify I wanted a de-dion in green but has the 5 speed instead of a 6 speed? There still isn't enough data. Was my 16k k series worth it when I have some rust repair to do? Does a clean registration have more value? We will never get clean enough data. Look forward to catching up with yall at one of the events and learning from the forum. There is so much knowledge here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 1, 2023 Share Posted January 1, 2023 (edited) IMO, Sevens are too custom, include too many variables, and possess too small of a total manufactured base for meaningful sales trends to emerge. Over the 4 decades during which I have bought and sold four Sevens, I have noticed that they are a unique combination: Destination sports cars that are both rare and affordable . Most destination sports cars are either too rare or too expensive, or (usually) both. Sevens are scarce, but not rare, and because of lack of content they remain affordable (pound for pound, that statement is untrue - based on the weight of a 911, my last used 2010 Seven went for about $160,000). And the Seven, because of classic appearance, enormous history, incredible performance (Supercar to 70), and world-beating fun-factor to drive, is a true destination sports car - a car that enthusiasts lust over, a car that never ages out or becomes outmoded, a car that owners buy and keep for years. Knowing these attributes, I have never considered time of year when selling or buying. There is a small Spring premium, but not big enough to change plans over. These cars sell at any time of the year, because their market is global, and it is always warm somewhere (or will be in a month or two). The destinations of cars I have sold include MI, CA, NC and Sweden. Also IMO, there is a general spread for any Seven of certain years, miles, equipment level and condition, but the biggest factor in determining the ultimate sales price is salesmanship - the ads, the images, the venues, and the person-to-person relationship that develops between buyer and seller. Obviously, you can't sell liver for the price of ribeye, but salesmanship determines the maximum value achieved. I have bought and sold Sevens during recessions, expansions and periods of inflation. All those epochs had small effect on the final price, but our little destination sporter will sell when others don't. Edited January 2, 2023 by Bruce K 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 8, 2023 Author Share Posted January 8, 2023 Week Beginning January 8, 2023 Happy New Year! USA7s Classified Ads Cars For Sale - USA7s NEW Westfield 1985 Westfield Lotus Seven Oakland, California | Hemmings Locost Project LocostUSA.com • View topic - Mid-engine unfinished project Birkin Project (back again) (5) Marketplace - 1994 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Locost Project (5) Marketplace - 1972 Lotus 7 | Facebook Lotus 7 Project 1962 Lotus Super 7 - auto parts - by owner - vehicle automotive sale (craigslist.org) REPEATS Caterham 2013 Caterham Super 7 40th Anniversary Buffalo, New York | Hemmings Westfield 1991 Westfield Se Jacksonville, Florida | Hemmings and here 1991 LOTUS Super Seven TRIBUTE ROADSTER - (COLLECTOR SERIES) | eBay Stalker 1962 Lotus Brunton Stalker Palmetto, Florida | Hemmings and here 1962 Lotus Seven Brunton Stalker for Sale in Palmetto, FL | RacingJunk and here 1962 Lotus Seven Brunton Stalker | eBay Lotus 7 S4 1971 Lotus Seven for Sale in LAKE LEELANAU, | RacingJunk Westfield 1995 Other Makes SE | eBay Stalker 1959 Lotus Super Seven | eBay Locost Project LocostUSA.com • View topic - For Sale - Unfinished V8 Locost Project Lotus 7 S1 (5) Marketplace - 1959 Lotus - Gold Medalion Certified Vintage Race Car Super Seven - Series One | Facebook Birkin (5) Marketplace - 1994 Birkin (Lotus) Seven | Facebook Diva 7 1962 LOTUS SUPER 7 LS1 4L60 TRANS BRITISH ROCKETSHIP - cars & trucks... (craigslist.org) Replica (5) Marketplace - 1957 Lotus Elise | Facebook Lotus 7 S2 (5) Marketplace - 1962 Lotus Super 7 S2 | Facebook Lotus 7 S2 (5) Marketplace - 1967 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Caterham (5) Marketplace - 1980 Caterham Super 7 | Facebook WCM Ultralite (5) Marketplace - WCM ultralight s2k, caterham 7, Honda f20 motor | Facebook Caterham (5) Marketplace - 2001 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook CANADA Locost Project Lotus Super 7 Home Build | Classic Cars | Victoria | Kijiji and here Lotus Super 7 Home Build - cars & trucks - by owner (craigslist.org) Deman SR7 Deman sr7 ( lotus 7 Caterham seven kit car ) | Cars & Trucks | Hamilton | Kijiji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastg Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 From the Locost list. https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pts/d/seattle-1970s-lotus-seven-series-iv/7573939745.html Interesting, the price is right Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 This is an EVO article from today, comparing the lowest powered new Caterham to one of the most powerful version. For anyone interested in purchasing a new Caterham, the information could be useful: https://www.evo.co.uk/caterham/7/205564/caterham-super-seven-600-v-super-seven-2000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 Caterham SV on Bringatrailer Caterham Super Seven SV for sale on BaT Auctions - ending January 20 (Lot #96,304) | Bring a Trailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 Week Beginning January 15, 2023 USA7s Classifieds are here Cars For Sale - USA7s NEW Caterham Caterham Super Seven SV for sale on BaT Auctions - ending January 20 (Lot #96,304) | Bring a Trailer Lotus 7 S4 Project 1970s Lotus Seven Series IV parts car - auto parts - by owner -... (craigslist.org) Replica Project (2) Marketplace - 1972 Lotus 7 | Facebook Locost Project (2) Marketplace - 1967 Lotus Locost kit car lotus 7 | Facebook Replica Project (2) Marketplace - 2023 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook REPEATS Stalker 1962 Lotus Seven Brunton Stalker | eBay and here 1962 Lotus Seven Brunton Stalker for Sale in Palmetto, FL | RacingJunk and here 1962 Lotus Brunton Stalker Palmetto, Florida | Hemmings Lotus 7 S4 1971 Lotus Seven for Sale in LAKE LEELANAU, | RacingJunk Westfield 1991 LOTUS Super Seven TRIBUTE ROADSTER - (COLLECTOR SERIES) | eBay and here 1991 Westfield Se Jacksonville, Florida | Hemmings Westfield 1995 Other Makes SE | eBay Westfield 1985 Westfield Lotus Seven Oakland, California | Hemmings Caterham 2013 Caterham Super 7 40th Anniversary Buffalo, New York | Hemmings Locost Project LocostUSA.com • View topic - For Sale - Unfinished V8 Locost Project Locost Project LocostUSA.com • View topic - Mid-engine unfinished project Caterham Caterham Inventory — Beachman Racing Caterham (2) Marketplace - 1980 Caterham Super 7 | Facebook WCM Ultralite (2) Marketplace - WCM ultralight s2k, caterham 7, Honda f20 motor | Facebook Caterham (2) Marketplace - 2001 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Birkin kit (2) Marketplace - 1994 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Locost (2) Marketplace - 1957 Lotus Elise | Facebook Lotus 7 S2 (2) Marketplace - 1962 Lotus Super 7 S2 | Facebook Lotus 7 S2 (2) Marketplace - 1967 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Birkin (2) Marketplace - 1994 Birkin (Lotus) Seven | Facebook Lotus 7 S1 (2) Marketplace - 1959 Lotus - Gold Medalion Certified Vintage Race Car Super Seven - Series One | Facebook CANADA Locost Project Lotus Super 7 Home Build | Classic Cars | Victoria | Kijiji and here (2) Marketplace - 2023 Ubuild lotus super 7 | Facebook and here Lotus Super 7 Home Build - cars & trucks - by owner (craigslist.org) Deman SR7 Deman sr7 ( lotus 7 Caterham seven kit car ) | Cars & Trucks | Hamilton | Kijiji and here (2) Marketplace - 2006 Deman SR7 ( lotus 7 Caterham seven) | Facebook Westfield (2) Marketplace - 2017 Westfield Kit car | Facebook Lotus 7 S4 (2) Marketplace - 1973 Lotus super seven | Facebook Replica (2) Marketplace - 2021 Lotus Super seven | Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 17, 2023 Author Share Posted January 17, 2023 Birkin on Bringatrailer located in Quebec Duratec-Powered Birkin S3 for sale on BaT Auctions - ending January 24 (Lot #96,555) | Bring a Trailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 22, 2023 Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 Week Beginning January 22, 2023 Regular USA7s Classified Ads Cars For Sale - USA7s NEW Birkin Zetec-Powered Birkin S3 for sale on BaT Auctions - ending January 24 (Lot #96,555) | Bring a Trailer Stalker 1962 Replica/Kit Makes Brunton | eBay RCR SLR (10) Marketplace - 2010 RCR SLR | Facebook Lotus 7 S2 - two car (10) Marketplace - 1962 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Exocet (10) Marketplace - 2014 Mazda Miata (exocet) | Facebook Blakely Bantam (10) Marketplace - 1984 Lotus Super 7 Replica * Blakely Bantam Kit Car | Facebook Exocet (10) Marketplace - 2017 Mazda Exomotive Exocet | Facebook REPEATS Westfield 1995 Other Makes SE | eBay Westfield 1991 LOTUS Super Seven TRIBUTE ROADSTER - (COLLECTOR SERIES) | eBay and here 1991 Westfield Se Jacksonville, Florida | Hemmings Stalker 1962 Lotus Seven Brunton Stalker | eBay and here 1962 Lotus Seven Brunton Stalker for Sale in Palmetto, FL | RacingJunk and here 1962 Lotus Brunton Stalker Palmetto, Florida | Hemmings Lotus 7 S4 1971 Lotus Seven for Sale in LAKE LEELANAU, | RacingJunk Caterham 2013 Caterham Super 7 40th Anniversary Buffalo, New York | Hemmings Westfield 1985 Westfield Lotus Seven Oakland, California | Hemmings Locost Project LocostUSA.com • View topic - For Sale - Unfinished V8 Locost Project Locost Project LocostUSA.com • View topic - Mid-engine unfinished project Caterham Caterham Inventory — Beachman Racing Lotus 7 S1 (10) Marketplace - 1959 Lotus - Gold Medalion Certified Vintage Race Car Super Seven - Series One | Facebook Goblin (10) Marketplace - 2019 Goblin Kit Car | Facebook Replica Project (10) Marketplace - 1972 Lotus 7 | Facebook Replica Project (10) Marketplace - 1967 Lotus Locost kit car lotus 7 | Facebook Replica Project (10) Marketplace - 2023 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Lotus 7 S2 (10) Marketplace - 1967 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook Caterham (10) Marketplace - 1980 Caterham Super 7 | Facebook Caterham (10) Marketplace - 2001 Lotus Super 7 | Facebook CANADA Birkin Zetec-Powered Birkin S3 for sale on BaT Auctions - ending January 24 (Lot #96,555) | Bring a Trailer Replica Lotus super seven Caterham 7 replica | Classic Cars | Hamilton | Kijiji and here (10) Marketplace - 2021 Lotus Super seven | Facebook Replica Project Lotus Super 7 Home Build | Classic Cars | Victoria | Kijiji Westfield (10) Marketplace - 2017 Westfield Kit car | Facebook Deman SR7 (10) Marketplace - 2006 Deman SR7 ( lotus 7 Caterham seven) | Facebook Lotus 7 S4 (10) Marketplace - 1973 Lotus super seven | Facebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Is the Hillbank listing missing? 620S for a pretty dollar https://www.hillbankusa.com/vehicles/653/1957-caterham-620s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) Wow - a 620 SV chassis - that's a bodacious vehicle. Before I bought the Lola, I tried to buy the S3 620R Hillbank was selling, but they wanted $90K used. They are willing to sit on a vehicle for several years in order to get close to their asking price - that's good for the Caterham market, but bad for individual purchasers. For the price they are asking for this S version, I was able to purchase and refurbish my hybrid Lola T70 ("hybrid" does NOT mean semi-electric - I mean the car is composed of factory, original and replica parts, the latter often different from factory spec). Both the 620 and the Lola are deranged open-top flyweight English roadsters, but FOR ME there is more fun and comfort available from the Lola - bigger cockpit, larger footwell, gobs more torque, safer confines, cheaper parts (my deal included an entire extra body, 4 extra wheels, a spare transaxle AND the engine is SBC), a super-sexy silhouette AND a bucket-list item - an HSR logbook, so I could move up from track days to vintage racing on occasion. I like what I hear from vintage racers. There is a big premium placed on hardware protection including freedom from contact. Those that exchange paint are given 30 day suspensions, and repeat offenses can result in loss of an entire season - too many valuable and gorgeous cars running in vintage. Too me, vintage racing sounds like an amped-up track day, where there really IS a trophy for the winners. I will not be an elbows-out racer - participation is adequate for me, and at the rare event where there are only 3 cars in my class, guess what - a TROPHY as long as I finish the race. Edited January 23, 2023 by Bruce K 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now