Parts Availability, Post-ICE Era

[rider]

What do you guys think about very long term scenario on parts availability, long after ICE Seven's production ended?

 

Based on my very extensive observation, except for the powertrain, Seven's parts have short lifespan. Reading from a ton of posts, over the years, it appears, every part is  essentially a consumable, except the engine and transmission. They need to be closely monitored, inspected and replaced; ideally, before they fail!

 

Parts are made for low cost and less weight. So, the specs are much lower than typical production sports cars which weigh much more. This results in parts wearing out sooner. So, we'll need steady supply of these parts.

 

UK has set '30 as sunset for ICE. Seven will switch to electric; they already have a prototype, as you know. So, when the ICE ends, Caterham's suppliers will simply stop making/sourcing parts soon after. The volume of the series production is low to begin with, which means, its suppliers already have a very small market to serve. Some parts can be fabricated; but, most can't be.

 

So, what's your prognosis on how will this play out? How do you plan to keep your Seven still humming for a very long time? If I decide to go ahead with my plan of getting one, I plan to keep it for good! If my body gives out, will simply find a way to park it in my Home Office (I'll be working/coding till I kick the bucket....!) or Home Gym (and, lifting....)!!

 

Thanks.

 

[MV8]

The same could be said of any modern car, which are less long-term sustainable than older cars. I don't know why anyone would need anything directly from caterham to maintain a conservative design, fair weather car. Anything that cannot be made or repaired here, can be upgraded. Probably the biggest issue is finding competent, local support.

 

I think the problems you are reading about are mostly from buying a car that has not been maintained, modifications, racing abuse, a few parts made complicated in an attempt to make them proprietary, and lack of support for cars made in the last ten years by not sharing service info in the form of schematics. I expect the electric will take lessons from Tesla to be more proprietary than ever when it could be so simple with standard components and no middle  man inserted to prevent or authorize component replacement.

 

A 5spd with an '80-90s design domestic, mass produced engine and efi with drum rear brakes should be the most practical and trouble free car imho. Practical (heater,wiper, quiet, mild tune, pump gas) helps to ensure regular use. Sitting for six months at a time isn't good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Christopher smith]

I am not so sure about heavier, mass produced cars having better designed ,stronger parts and some of the failed Lotus parts may have come from cars weighing 50-90% higher. Some engineers at the big operations are restrained by cost considerations and therefore look at the parts bins from existing models when designing a new car (just like Lotus did). Having owned many, worked on friend's street driven cars and moderate budget race teams, I have observed quite a few unusually worn or outright broken parts. For the race driven cars I am only referring to parts that are not particularly stressed by the forces imparted by racing as it is unfair to fault unusually stressed parts that were designed for road use. I am however referring to Jaguar, Lancia, Mercedes, MG, Triumph, AH, Sunbeam, Chrysler, Ford ( USA, UK and Germany) and others. What I do fault is the idea that factory replacement parts should be installed, failure after failure. At a minimum, highly stressed parts should be crack tested and carefully installed but perhaps redesigned or substituted with better materials or only subjected to light loads with relatively conservative driving. Speed with reliability should not be seen as inexpensive or easy.

[wdb]

Caterham (post-Lotus) has sold over 22,000 Se7ens during its existence. The great majority of those cars are likely to still exist. That's a healthy population for the aftermarket to consider. My car has an engine that was originally designed 60 years ago; I can buy a brand new one today, assuming my pockets reach that deep. Which is my point. The problem is not going to be lack of support. The problem -- if one chooses to call it that -- is going to be cost. Eventually keeping ICE cars will be an expensive hobby with select participants, like keeping horses is today.

[IamScotticus]

If it were easy and within $4k to drop in a motor, batteries and controllers, 

and NOT add an extra 500 lbs, I'd do it.

An E7 would be insane 🤯

Edited Thursday at 03:26 AM by IamScotticus

[7Westfield]

Hmmm   I know where there's a square tube locost frame hanging on a wall.....

[Marek]

I anticipate we are talking at least 15, maybe 20, years from now.  And I expect the lack of people with the required skills will be a greater hurdle than parts availability.  For many non-Caterham Seven owners, poor parts availability is par for the course.

 

Maybe the risk is Sevens become less accessible.

 

The skills problem is a topic in classic car circles and not limited to Sevens.

[rider]

17 hours ago, MV8 said:

The same could be said of any modern car, which are less long-term sustainable than older cars. I don't know why anyone would need anything directly from caterham to maintain a conservative design, fair weather car. Anything that cannot be made or repaired here, can be upgraded. Probably the biggest issue is finding competent, local support.......

 

 

Yes, contemporary cars have so much electronics which would become obsolete sooner and unsupported. All the sensors, displays and such will evolve and older versions could become difficult to get. There might be few safer bets though. Porsche Classic is gaining traction in supporting older models. Or, Honda potentially making parts for NSX and S2000.

 

14 hours ago, Christopher smith said:

I am not so sure about heavier, mass produced cars having better designed ,stronger parts and some of the failed Lotus parts may have come from cars weighing 50-90% higher. .........

 

Lotus may not be a good candidate for reliability though. Think Porsche. Leaving aside few well-documented issues in many models and generations, Porsches are generally reliable (its non-sports cars have a different track record though). At least, I don't carry a spare clutch cable as one or two Seven drivers suggest I do.....!

 

 

13 hours ago, wdb said:

Caterham (post-Lotus) has sold over 22,000 Se7ens during its existence. The great majority of those cars are likely to still exist. That's a healthy population for the aftermarket to consider................ Eventually keeping ICE cars will be an expensive hobby with select participants, like keeping horses is today.

 

I see your logic. However, that volume is highly fragmented in terms of models and generations. Parts overlap might be very little. So, for an individual supplier, the volume could still be really small. Now add the need to be making parts for contemporary models, that small supplier will be too stretched enough to give up on older models.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Marek said:

I anticipate we are talking at least 15, maybe 20, years from now.  And I expect the lack of people with the required skills will be a greater hurdle than parts availability.  ..........

The skills problem is a topic in classic car circles and not limited to Sevens.

 

Yes, I can see the scenario of ICE-aware technicians becoming too few, as others above have pointed out as well. Such skill set could become highly specialized and get pretty expensive. But, cars like Seven are pretty simple and not requiring special electronic tools. In other words, simpler the cars, better would be the chances of finding someone to work on.

 

Thanks everyone for the feedback. However, I'm still not seeing a good pathway for the availability of parts given the need for a steady supply.

 

 

 

 

[Marek]

You only have to watch a few episodes of Wheeler Dealer to have the sense this is not so much a problem in the UK as the US.  For every other late model car they refurbish, a box of parts goes off to some specialist for a rebuild.  There was, I think, a Maserati 4200 Cambiocorsa which they had the F1 gearbox hydraulics rebuilt and the console refinished and lettering restored.  Both seemingly daunting tasks in low demand, but a niche specialist exists in the UK for each.

[IamScotticus]

India has a law not allowing car parts to leave the country.  It is an excellent resource for restorations.  

Having seen the export side, hundreds of classic ICE cars are exported every year to buyers in non emissions countries.  When you sell a car, if it's collectable,  there's a good chance your buyer is a broker or scout for a foerigner.  And why should I care?  If all the Nice Lincoln Marks were to leave the states, it would be loosing a chunk of our heritage,  like England loosing all the Ford Prefects.  No, not a great loss, but still,  a part of the national heritage.

It's happening,  they are going to the scrappers, private collections and Arabs with massive toy boxes.

Edited Thursday at 05:30 AM by IamScotticus

[rider]

On 11/20/2024 at 10:53 PM, Marek said:

........  For every other late model car they refurbish, a box of parts goes off to some specialist for a rebuild. .......

 

Sure, you'll have specialists rebuilding for well-heeled clientele. We have all kinds of restomods. Mainstream companies themselves offer such services; Porsche Classic, for example. For regular, almost-daily-driven (or, very frequently) cars such as Seven, I still maintain that steady supply of parts would be needed. Of course, competent techs/shops are mandatory as well. Such skill set would be sustained albeit in a smaller scale.

 

 

[fastg]

Metal based 3D printing might be the savior or the new CNC shops. Draw it up send the file a few days later the part arrives. 

 

Graham

[fastg]

Check this out 
 

 

[Croc]

Its already here @fastg   I have been 3D printing unobtainium parts on my cars for the last 4 years. 

 

 

[panamericano]

30 minutes ago, Croc said:

Its already here @fastg   I have been 3D printing unobtainium parts on my cars for the last 4 years. 

 

 

How about a section to add computer files for parts others may want to 3D print?  Would that be feasible or do different printers take different format files?

[Croc]

Sure.   I want to hear what people have for CAD files first.  We are limited on files types.  

[JohnCh]

3 hours ago, panamericano said:

How about a section to add computer files for parts others may want to 3D print?  Would that be feasible or do different printers take different format files?

We have a 3D printing forum with a grand total of three threads.  https://usa7s.net/ips/forum/43-3d-printing/  If people want to start posting their designs there, I'm happy to create a section in the library and start moving them over once we get critical mass, but I don't want to create a new section to hold just two or three designs.  As for file type, it's not an issue for downloads.  STL is the standard for 3D printing, but the common slicers can also use STEP files which store more data and are better for things other than 3D printing.  

 

 

[rider]

On 11/22/2024 at 7:44 AM, fastg said:

Metal based 3D printing might be the savior or the new CNC shops. Draw it up send the file a few days later the part arrives. 

 

Graham

 

On 11/22/2024 at 2:49 PM, fastg said:

Check this out 
 

 

Thanks, Graham.

 

 

On 11/22/2024 at 3:41 PM, Croc said:

Its already here @fastg   I have been 3D printing unobtainium parts on my cars for the last 4 years. 

 

 

 

Mike, are you able to make "any" metal part? For example, how about an internal part of the engine or fuel pump, etc.? How are the quality and durability of the parts made? Would you be able to print by scanning a broken/failed part or need schematics? And, I'm guessing you can only print straight metal parts? Thanks.

 

I was the Software Architect of a project for a major German company building an application in Additive Manufacturing (3D Printing). The process is very complicated. Our application layer focused on error detection and classifications at each layer on the Powder Bed. The expensive hardware and software get updated periodically, undermining investments. The parts need to be tested thoroughly. Automotive parts are very critical in their mission objectives. We don't want the clutch cable snapping or brake pedal giving out at a wrong time!

 

Of course, 3D Printing/Additive Manufacturing is the savior in not only automotive space, but in scores of other industries as well. 3D Printing a human organ? Already happening. Will only get better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Croc]

5 hours ago, rider said:

Mike, are you able to make "any" metal part? For example, how about an internal part of the engine or fuel pump, etc.? How are the quality and durability of the parts made? Would you be able to print by scanning a broken/failed part or need schematics? And, I'm guessing you can only print straight metal parts? Thanks.

 

 

To be fair the metal parts are fairly simple so far - wiper mechanism arms and brackets for very minor engine ancillaries, etc.  As you note there is a limit on shape of part - a coolant junction was tried and failed as an experiment (it was cool to watch though!)   I have had 3D printing in various types of plastics for a lot longer - more parts of the wiper mechanism/gears, interior switchgear, trim parts for engine bay and interior, etc.  Parts have been fine for durability - never had anything fail.  They turn out quite authentic looking. 

 

Up to now, engine bits are always 3D milled as opposed to 3D printed - never heard of anyone seriously using 3D printing for pistons, cranks, rods, valves, etc.   However, I suspect there are a lot of people trying. 

[wdb]

On the 3D topic:

 

https://www.czinger.com/model-21c