What's the best future proof daily driver?

[Vovchandr]

9 hours ago, John B said:

I can’t stop looking at this for a winter beater. Somebody please talk me off the ledge.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/1CGD9hxWwd/?mibextid=wwXIfr

 

Matt Farah did all the legwork for you and did a test on just this

 

 

He had a whole ownership series throughout the 2024 for this car. If I recall it was rock solid beyond a few small issues that got fixed with a window regular or similar. 

[Croc]

14 hours ago, John B said:

I can’t stop looking at this for a winter beater. Somebody please talk me off the ledge.

 

https://www.facebook.com/share/1CGD9hxWwd/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Why not?  Add some cases of Grey Poupon to the “boot” (or trunk if you are colonial) for winter traction.  Maybe a cheesecloth cap to hide the bald spot and lord it over all the peasants or Vlads at the traffic lights next to you.  Top up the Amex card for the 12mpg that can be expected.  Then luxuriate in the acres of cow that the very British craftsmen specially peeled for you.  

I’m not helping am I?

 

[wdb]

3 hours ago, Croc said:

Why not?  Add some cases of Grey Poupon to the “boot” (or trunk if you are colonial) for winter traction.  Maybe a cheesecloth cap to hide the bald spot and lord it over all the peasants or Vlads at the traffic lights next to you.  Top up the Amex card for the 12mpg that can be expected.  Then luxuriate in the acres of cow that the very British craftsmen specially peeled for you.  

I’m not helping am I?

 

 

No, no, no. 22's and spinners. Shag the (probably dried and split) dash. Pimp that ride.

[panamericano]

A low milage Toyota pickup.  Pre Tacoma/Tundra.  Think Hilux.  R22 engine, manual of course.  I had 3, new 1986, 80k 1975, 80k 1980.  I did get rid of the 1980 in 2017, huge error.  Only 37 years old and mechanicals showed no issues at all.  Find any one with under 100k and you are set for life.  Still regret getting the modern Tacoma in comparison. 

[Croc]

Defining the problem - 10 to 20 years and 200K miles plus.

 

Ten years is easy.  Modern cars are designed for a 10 year life and around 150K miles with normal maintenance (unless it is a modern Audi, Porsche or VW - they have bigger maintenance issues).  My BMW SUV kitchen appliance has a 10 year life expectancy.   Most manufacturers stop making parts for their vehicles to ensure they have inventory for roughly 12-14 years life span after production.  Its after the 15 year mark, many parts become hard to find for nearly all modern cars. 

 

So lets make it serious and do this for 20 years plus and north of 200K miles.

 

Its always the plastic and electronic componentry parts that wear out and become the hardest to find.  Chassis, body and mechanical drive train can always be more readily repaired.  The stuff you really need to worry about are dash innards, ECU, HVAC, emissions stuff, etc.  These can kill a car in some states. 

 

An example, I have a 1991 Range Rover that I have slowly been bringing back from the dead.  Its odometer failed.  Trying to find a legal replacement was a global ordeal since you have to have a working odometer by NJ law.  Only OEM anti-tamper odometers are acceptable.  GPS odometers are not permitted.  Non-working odometers are grounds to prevent a car being sold on - you can be sued in a civil case if you do and every attorney would take that case on for free as it is easy money to win.  A working odometer is required for insurance - your policy can be invalidated if the insurer finds out and it is a standard check point for claim assessors.  The unit for a 1991 car is unavailable other than by salvage from another car.  They can be repaired despite cheap flimsy construction but there are only two businesses in the UK that have the knowledge to do this and both are owned by gents in their 60s.  What happens when they retire in the next 10 years?    After market ECUs are not permitted as by the 1990s we are into post-OBDII territory and therefore subject to emissions in many places - even for a car that old (mine is subject to regular emissions testing) and that never ages out.  Designating a car as a classic for registration to bypass regulations actually legally prevents you from making it a decent annual mileage daily driver.   What I set out to eventually be my classic daily driver car has turned out to be more a marginal proposition for long term than I originally thought. 

 

Yes some of you will say you should just ignore the law for little transgressions or move states but that will not always be possible and you have to consider that one day something will catch you.  A simple auto accident can leave you hugely exposed legally.  I want to sleep well at night and not always be looking over my shoulder for things trying to catch me.

 

For this to work properly with reasonable degree of certainty, you have to go back older into the 1980s or prior to find cars with limited plastic component and limited electronic circuitry components such that you have confidence of being able to bodge a solution if it comes down to it.   You have to pick cars where the manufacturers or enthusiast community have a high demand for parts such they are still being supported by the manufacturer or can be remanufactured. 

 

Listing those I have found to meet my stringent criteria:

 

• Porsche 911 - Pre-1988 models.  Lots of manufacturer and enthusiast community parts support.  Reliable with use.  Quite practical for daily use.
• Pre-1983 Ferrari's - Ferrari is excellent as supporting their older cars to stay on the road.  Yes the parts supply chain moves like a glacier but a regularly used Colombo V12 engine is remarkably reliable. So is the gearbox if you avoid using second gear. There is a guy out there with an early 1980s 400 with over 500,000 miles on it.  Engine never been apart. 
• Land Rover - @Vovchandr is right.  Pre-88 Range Rovers and pre-1989 Defenders are prime candidates.  Lots of parts available in the UK.  Huge fan following globally.  Limited electronics.  No pesky ECU or emissions shit.  Their propensity to rust is unfortunate but they can be rebuilt - replacement chassis and panels available.   I am told that you can make a 1970s and early 80s Range Rover/110/Defender from scratch just using the parts catalog.  Only downside is this limits you to the 3.5L V8 or diesels - pick the diesel as the better long term option.  The 3.5L V8 is tough but the fuel economy is horrific.
• Volvo 240 - Lots of parts.  Bullet proof.  Huge cult following.  Only area on the car thats a maintenance issue is replacing the HVAC blower motor as its a multiday job.  Only problem is that 115hp gets you everywhere slooooooooowly......
• Mercedes - 1960s/70s W114/115/116 Mercedes sedans or the 1980s 190E (it gave its ECU to the Caterham 7 up until last year).  You see these all over the world in the middle of nowhere still plugging on reliably.  Massively over engineered.  Mercedes still strongly support with parts.  I came across a W115 last year in remote outback Australia in an Aboriginal community that was 300 miles from a designated road - it must have driven overland offroad to get there at some point in its life.  You see them in remote communities in Africa and they still plug away.   A late 1960s/early 70s pagoda roofed SL is also a candidate - I have a UK friend who has been daily driving his for the last 30 years - north of 600,000 miles on it.   
• 1960s and 70s Chevy, Ford, Mini mass market classics.  Did you know you can manufacture your own 1967 Camaro from parts out of a catalog? Same for a early Ford Bronco or Mustang. You can also do the same with the original Mini in the UK. 
• Toyota - I agree with @panamericano  There is huge support for early Landcruisers and Hilux pick ups. 

 

 

[7Westfield]

Croc....funny you mention the HVAC blower in a Volvo 240

A friend used to have a shop with a fair sized Volvo clientele

he said the first thing you do for that job is remove the back seat, so you have a place to put all the S**t from the dash   LOL

 I think they hung the blower on a string and built the car around it

Edited yesterday at 03:28 PM by 7Westfield

[Vovchandr]

5 hours ago, Croc said:

@Vovchandr is right. 

 

well said

 

You're certainly a man with experience to contribute to this discussion as somebody who owns a fleet of obscure cars that are in various forms of restoration.

 

The reason behind the thread is that it's one thing to have an obscure fun project car down for 6 months waiting for some part but that can't happen to a daily driver but both will face the same problems in the long term. 

 

A Defender while works on paper, it is practically a tractor for the road and is certainly not safe or good for long distances so unfortunately that's out as far as I'm concerned.

 

What are the arguments against a W463 G Wagon? 

 

Modern enough to be safe with creature comforts. Long enough run span (28 years?) to have parts and options available globally. Not too sure on the V8 on the G500 but likely shared with other Mercs and I've seen people do LS1 swaps if needed. Body on frame. Built tough. Major manufacturer. Priced cheap. Talk me out of this being a good idea for long term. ~2005 for like $35k?

Edited yesterday at 04:45 PM by Vovchandr

[Croc]

2 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

A Defender while on paper works is practically a tractor for the road and is certainly not safe or good for long distances so unfortunately that's out as far as I'm concerned.

 

What are the arguments against a W463 G Wagon?

 

 

6 hours ago, Croc said:

@Vovchandr is not right. 

 

 

Clearly this is from someone who has never driven a G Wagon.  Harsh suspension.  Somewhat ill defined steering.  Brakes are not the greatest. 

 

A Defender is a luxury ride compared with the G Wagon.  Its even worse if you get the AMG G Wagon version with the low profile tires. 

 

Sure the dealer network is expansive.  There is great parts availability in third world countries - useful for upstate New York I suppose?  But your son is going to need a spinal transplant before his 5th birthday. 

 

Personally I'd go for a older model Range Rover as it rides nicely, handles well, comfortable driving position, big and roomy and the expansive glasshouse makes it a nice place to be.  Downside is that not all AC parts are available in all cases but you can go aftermarket, which is what I did.  Use them daily and they are decently reliable.  Parts supply is pretty good. 

[Vovchandr]

6 minutes ago, Croc said:

 

 

 

 

Clearly this is from someone who has never driven a G Wagon.  Harsh suspension.  Somewhat ill defined steering.  Brakes are not the greatest. 

 

A Defender is a luxury ride compared with the G Wagon.  Its even worse if you get the AMG G Wagon version with the low profile tires. 

 

Sure the dealer network is expansive.  There is great parts availability in third world countries - useful for upstate New York I suppose?  But your son is going to need a spinal transplant before his 5th birthday. 

 

Personally I'd go for a older model Range Rover as it rides nicely, handles well, comfortable driving position, big and roomy and the expansive glasshouse makes it a nice place to be.  Downside is that not all AC parts are available in all cases but you can go aftermarket, which is what I did.  Use them daily and they are decently reliable.  Parts supply is pretty good. 

 

Noted. You're correct I haven't been in either. To be fair my standards are pretty low.

 

I'll try to arrange a drive in either in the future but back to drawing board in meantime.

 

Maybe a 2010 Tacoma/4 Runner

[Marek]

8 hours ago, Croc said:

Its always the plastic and electronic componentry parts that wear out and become the hardest to find.  Chassis, body and mechanical drive train can always be more readily repaired.  The stuff you really need to worry about are dash innards, ECU, HVAC, emissions stuff, etc.  These can kill a car in some states. 

 

...

 

For this to work properly with reasonable degree of certainty, you have to go back older into the 1980s or prior to find cars with limited plastic component and limited electronic circuitry components such that you have confidence of being able to bodge a solution if it comes down to it.   You have to pick cars where the manufacturers or enthusiast community have a high demand for parts such they are still being supported by the manufacturer or can be remanufactured. 

 

Option 3 is to not expect to rely upon OEM.  Electrical systems in particular are well suited for modern replacements.  Aftermarket PDMs have become quite sophisticated and ECUs options are plentiful.  Of course this does assume we have a supply of shops with the needed skills.

 

The odometer question for aftermarket dashes and ECUs deserves more investigation.  Agreed the specific legality is often dismissed.  But I recall there are conditions to replace a dash and satisfy the law.  For example, 2021 updates to the Motor Vehicle Information and Cost Savings Act added flexibility to odometer rules for cars over 20 years old.

[fastg]

It's easy to look back and say "that was a good car". It's much more difficult to predict what current car will be good in 20 years 200k miles. 

 

Graham 

[Marek]

4 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

A Defender while works on paper, it is practically a tractor for the road and is certainly not safe or good for long distances so unfortunately that's out as far as I'm concerned.

 

Defenders and earlier G-Wagens are both excellent road-going tractors.

[Christopher smith]

17 minutes ago, fastg said:

It's easy to look back and say "that was a good car". It's much more difficult to predict what current car will be good in 20 years 200k miles. 

 

Graham 

For sure it is tricky to get long term reliability based on single inputs. That is why I have found the April Consumer Reports used car survey so useful. They survey actual a large amount of owners of each model and year of quite a few vehicles and run the statistics on around about 10 different reliability areas such as engine, brakes, transmission etc.. That is where I see a huge history of doing it right for virtually all Toyota models and a few others that do not seem to get anything right.

[fastg]

History is always a good source of history. But the new Takoma had a BIG transmission issue, and I think that are replacing all V8 Tundra engines because of swarf left from a machining step. History would tell you that are both great, but maybe not. 

 

I would vote for the GM GMT800 models, LS1 none cylinder displacement, great transmission. I got my Tahoe as a tow vehicle, the wife make me take it an all road trips because of how smooth and conferrable it is. 178K miles and running strong

 

Graham 

[NSXguy]

1 hour ago, fastg said:

It's easy to look back and say "that was a good car". It's much more difficult to predict what current car will be good in 20 years 200k miles. 

 

Graham 

 

100%… so many variables and while Past performance is not always a reliable predictor of future performance… I will say if one is open to truck life, I’ve been very happy with my fully optioned crew cab, 5ft bed Taco 🌮. Rock solid during my ownership (with standard regular maintenance only) and I suspect it will be so in another 10 years.  
 

it is very practical, roomy (re: 4drs), enough power (large displacement v6) yet fairly decent mpg, can run on 87, contemporary tech, Navi and creature comforts… I truly want for nothing 😌. Oh, and for all these reasons it holds its value pretty well, I’d say. 

Edited 23 hours ago by NSXguy

[Vovchandr]

54 minutes ago, Christopher smith said:

For sure it is tricky to get long term reliability based on single inputs. That is why I have found the April Consumer Reports used car survey so useful. They survey actual a large amount of owners of each model and year of quite a few vehicles and run the statistics on around about 10 different reliability areas such as engine, brakes, transmission etc.. That is where I see a huge history of doing it right for virtually all Toyota models and a few others that do not seem to get anything right.

 

Consumer reports isn't something that I've been finding valuable due to their measuring rubrics and weights on issues. 

[Christopher smith]

8 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

 

Consumer reports isn't something that I've been finding valuable due to their measuring rubrics and weights on issues. 

For sure I would use them only for mid-longer term reliability. I guess I missed some of the Toyota issues but was never in the market for one anyway. And maybe from now on I will only note models that look really bad and avoid them. But as a guide on reliability in the past, my experience found them useful.

[Marek]

11 hours ago, Croc said:

Listing those I have found to meet my stringent criteria:

• Porsche 911 - Pre-1988 models.  Lots of manufacturer and enthusiast community parts support.  Reliable with use.  Quite practical for daily use.

The 85.5-91 Porsche 944 has all the same advantages at a much lower cost and better supply of used spares (look on FBMP for your local guy with a hoard behind the barn).

 

I daily'ed a 944 from 2003-2016 and my son now daily drives the car.

[panamericano]

  

1 hour ago, NSXguy said:

 

100%… so many variables and while Past performance is not always a reliable predictor of future performance… I will say if one is open to truck life, I’ve been very happy with my fully optioned crew cab, 5ft bed Taco 🌮. Rock solid during my ownership (with standard regular maintenance only) and I suspect it will be so in another 10 years.  
 

it is very practical, roomy (re: 4drs), enough power (large displacement v6) yet fairly decent mpg, can run on 87, contemporary tech, Navi and creature comforts… I truly want for nothing 😌. Oh, and for all these reasons it holds its value pretty well, I’d say. 

Yeah, I also have a (2017) Taco Ma.  I expect it will out live me.   @Croc did bring up RIDE issues (G vagen).  I am surprised Toyota still has not improved the ride.  Not as bad as the earlier little ones "punishing ride" (Consumer Rpts.) but still not good.