Comparison?

[iceberg1234]

OK, so I want to get a 7, mostly as a track car, but also to run around town. There are so many manufacturers and each thinks theirs is the best. Any opinions as to which is the better track car, or does it just mater how it's built and set up? Caterham, Birkin, Westfield, Brunton, Superformance, etc. etc. Thanks for any help you can give me.

[yellowss7]

I suggest you try to sit in and or drive as many as you can before you decide. The size, driving position, pedal box, steering wheel position. etc. vary and what fits one person may not feel right to another.

 

As for the best performer. It is definately driver dependant. While you can cram an LS V8 in some, if you are not a good driver, Someone like Kitcat will come along in a little 90hp crossflow and you'll be down a lap before you know it.

 

Enjoy the chase, and pick one that you feel good in. They are all pretty capable.

 

Tom

[Croc]

Sevens are as quirky as their owners. They are all different and all unique. The aspects to consider:

 

Looks - Do you prefer traditional (closest looking to a Lotus Seven - Caterham, Birkin) to modern (Ultralite, Stalker) or even hybrid between the two (Westfield)

 

Powerplant - Small high reving 4 cylinder versus V8 (stalker)

 

Suspension - Traditional live axle or the newer independent rear suspension

 

Size - Do you fit? A larger than life character needs more space - Caterham SV, Stalker and even Westfields have a few extra inches where it counts.

 

Lead time - If you are ordering new then figure on a 1+ year wait for a new Caterham. If you order a Ultralite or Stalker I bet it could be on road in less than 2 months.

 

Registration - You dont say what state you are in but some cars are easier to register than others. For newer cars, Stalker is probably the easiest (IMHO) in the most difficult of states (NJ) as OBDII can work with no faults since tail pipe readings are not accepted on post-OBDII engine and chassis. CA has it own registration quirks and hoops to jump through but the process is well understood by the CA members here and they can guide you.

 

 

As Tom noted above you really need to connect with the various owners local to you on this forum to check out their cars and talk through some of their experiences. The guys running Ultralite, Stalker and Birkin are amazingly approachable and when you get closer to a decision maybe take a trip to their place to talk with them directly.

[JohnCh]

Agree with all the above (even Croc ). Two things to add:

 

Final build quality is more dependent on the builder with some brands than it is with others. Consequently if you are buying used, you might see a wider variation among examples from brand A than brand B, but that doesn't mean that any given example of brand B is better built than something from brand A. It also means that if you are buying new, your efforts will have a bigger impact on the finished product with some brands. Depending on your perspective, that's either good or bad (personally I like it).

 

A se7en, regardless of make, is never really finished. All owners suffer from Acute Upgraditis and are always tweaking things to improve the driving experience. So yes, setup and mods will make a big difference in how various cars compare. The good news is that you can generally achieve what you're after with any of the major brands, particularly if that includes an ugly credit card balance

 

-John

[coffee break]

Something to consider, how much time you are going to commit to the project? If you like to get your hand dirty you might save some $$.

Also do you have a full Brinks truck to trade in on a 7?

[slomove]

If you don't know exactly what you want/need (or believe to need) I suggest buy first a used one (no matter which brand).

- you get immediate satisfaction

- much lower cash investment in the beginning. The value drop from new after first registration can be very high but long term the value is pretty stable and may even go up, depending on the market.

- you may like the car as-is and keep it

- you learn valuable lessons about Sevens ownership and technical stuff that can help you build a better car

- you get a much better feel for what you need before you commit to much more money on a new one

- if you want to upgrade via new car (with or without building yourself), you have already a good downpayment

- if you find after short time that a Seven is not your thing (I have seen this often) there is nothing lost.

[xcarguy]

iceberg1234,

I’ve driven Ultralites, Birkins and Stalkers and have looked closely at several Caterhams (no seat time); no experience with any other manufacturers. I used to be a hard-core Cobra fan until I got behind the wheel of what used to be Brian Anderson's Ultralite called Goldie; I've been hooked ever since. I’ve owned both a Birkin and a Stalker; the Stalker that I now own, I’ve owned twice (second rodeo with this car). While I truly liked the ‘more traditional’ look of the Birkin vs. the Stalker, I absolutely love the performance of my Stalker with its LS6. My Birkin made around 225hp at the crank, was backed by a Quaife sequential 6-speed and commanded very respectable performance. My Stalker currently puts down 370hp at the rear wheels with almost as much torque, is backed up by a Liberty Performance TKO 600 with face-plated gears and such but demands much more from the driver in the way of skill and wisdom at full throttle than did the Birkin. The Birkin, in comparison, seemed a bit more refined where the Stalker seems to be more of a raw brute. As for the available power produced by the Stalker, the saving grace is the very progressive throttle linkage I’m using which makes the power extremely manageable—I can drive this car on the street just as easily as I do my Toyota truck. Where the Birkin is more of a mail-order car (across-the-pond parts), the Stalker is produced in the US using parts available in the US and can basically be built using over-the-counter parts readily available from your local parts store; it’s just an American version of these type cars. I can’t speak for other manufacturers, but of the Birkins and Caterhams I’ve seen, they all seem to be more uniform in the build whereas the Stalkers I’ve seen are more like a fingerprint or an extension of the builder’s personality. When it comes right down to it, it all depends on what you want. Do research and look at and drive/ride in the cars you are considering.

As for the Stalker, here is a link to the Stalker build galllery. If you want to look at my car, it is chassis #85:

http://www471.pair.com/stalkerv/gallery2/

 

Price wise, you can buy an already built (used) car much cheaper than you can build one . . . regardless of manufacturer, and there are some very well sorted cars out there for sale. However, you will probably still need to make changes to any car you purchase, just ask anyone on this forum (I bought my car back last summer and it has been down for the last two-three months for winter projects). You can get a very nice, well equipped Birkin in the low to mid twenties (same for the Stalker with a super charged V6). Well equipped Caterhams seem to fetch a bit more money.

The comparisons are endless and much more can be said here, but I'll stop and let someone else chime in. :banghead:

I don't know where you live, but if you are close to south Arkansas, I'll be glad to take you out in the Stalker. Good luck with your search.

X

Edited February 22, 2013 by xcarguy

[powderbrake]

iceberg1234:

 

Welcome to the USA7s forum, and the "sickness" of Seven ownership.

 

All of the above replies are good answers to your question.

 

We have a tradition here on USA7s, not to post negative comments about a brand, nor to compare on a one to one basis " my car's suspension is better than brand X car's suspension". xcarguy's description of why he likes his Stalker is a good examle of the proper response, he tells you the good stuff, and doesn't bad rap the other cars.

 

That being said, I have an Ultralite, and I love it's bulletproof Honda relaibility, it's extra room, as it has a wider chassis, it's trunk space, and the simplicity of the suspension adjustment. If you are anywhere near St. Louis, you are welcome to jump in it for a ride.

 

Also, it helps if you list your location in your profile, that way 7 owners who are near you can offer help.

[iceberg1234]

Wow, Thanks. These are just the answers I was hoping for (and not - you didn't narrow my choices any.....). I'm looking for a built car and, unfortunately, live in NJ - so registration will be an issue. I understand the addiction part. I've got so much time and $$ invested in my Exige that I don't want to track it anymore (my enthusiasm and limited skills occasionally lead to off track "excursions").

 

Also, no one has mentioned Brunton or Superformance as options. Any comments on them? I actually have seen a Superformance S1 that looks very nice. Thanks.

[iceberg1234]

Oops, sorry, I know who makes the Stalker.....

[Croc]

Brunton = Stalker.

 

Superperformance are very nice. They are no longer made but even in the used ones the quality does show through. Definitely a notch above the average seven.

 

Since you are in NJ we should probably talk offline re registration so that you go into this with eyes open. Your choice of cars is severely restricted.

[Croc]

Maybe look at this link 7th post down for NJ reg starting pointers:

http://usa7s.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8030&page=2

[markmad]

Hi Iceberg, as you will notice I reply to you from the home of Birkin’s and Superferformance .

Your question is not too specific but I will assume you want a traditional looking 7 which then means Caterham ,Birkin and perhaps Fraser comes to mind of which it seems to me Birkin and Caterham are better represented in your part of the world. Your post ‘’stated using on a track ‘’ so I will suggest based on that.

Try buy a used example which is close to what you envisaged building. Don’t think you will build for less!!

Birkin’s offer the better value for money technically speaking , better than Caterham.

Birkin’s have a slight restriction with regards to power plants that are able to fit , but that said your most popular engines will fit properly.

Birkin’s have a very poor marketing strategy so one is not aware of how many optional parts are actually available for the car

If you looking for lap times then keep it 4cyl preferably N/A , The only alternative that I have seen work with regards to quick track times is a 13B rotary power

If you not looking for a traditional looking 7 then please ignore the above.

[sevenup]

I currently own a 3.4 Stalker and was lusting after a beautiful Superformance S1 last fall located about 70 miles from me . I finally got a chance to drive the car in October 2012. I loved the car and the build quality, but my feeling was (despite the beautiful interior) that the ingress/exgress and seat room was more restrictive than my Stalker and the low end torque did not compare to my to my little 3.4L. Still thinking about that car but not as much. Just my 2 cents.

[jimrankin]

From track day experiences I can say that most of the basic four cylinder 7's seem to be fairly close in TRACK performance. A little gain with IRS over a traditional axle but that is more of an advantage on our poorly maintained back roads, not on most tracks unless your really using ALL of the available curb. Some advantage to having motors with more rounded HP and torque curves like the Ford motors.(Stupid Stupid Honda V-tech bothers me no end on the street but is easiier to deal with on the track, just keep it near the red line at all times LOL.)

Has more to do with how much time and money you have to spend on trying different springs, shocks and tire/wheel combinations. I was at the latest Golden Gate lotus Club track day at Laguna Seca and rode in a fully sorted track only Birkin that made my S2K (street tires, cheap shocks, too stiff springs, hack driver) feel like a mini van. If you do all that sorting out on an S2K it would probably make a basic Birkin feel the same way.

I think the consensus is that you are going to have to sit in them for fit and feel and if possible drive/ride with some current owners(at the track if possible since that is your objective) before you can really make an informed choice. Even then, what you get may be either better or worse than the same brand different motor/suspension tweaks.

Keep in mind that you may buy it for the track and discover that you just can't get enough of it and start using it on the street even though it wasn't your original intent. Buying a 7 you can't get registered for street use may be something else to keep in the back of your mind with your final decision.

[Kitcat]

A Birkin has a tighter cockpit (you sit closer to the wheel) than a "long" cockpiit Caterham, so trying on each for size is important.

 

I have never seen a Superprformance on the track. The little roll-over hoops are not enough protection.

 

In terms of out-right performance, no other se7en will touch a V8 Stalker. Or, at least, nothing has come close at Grassroots Motor Sports Ultimate Car Challenge, at VIR.

 

New se7ens take a pretty huge depreciation hit the first year, then seem to hold their value well after that. So buying used can save $.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Kitcat

[xcarguy]

Ice,

 

Here's the bottom line; no matter the make, no matter the engine size, straight axle or IRS, whatever . . . these cars are FUN. I've driven some of these cars with less than half the HP of my car and it didn't reduce the excitement factor of driving one bit. All of these cars are a smile-a-minute when you get behind the wheel.

[speedwagon]

You say mostly track, first consider all track, then buy the best sorted most to your liking used car from someone moving up, look for smooth power band, and consider that you may actually want to race in a class. when you can out drive the car then think about moving up. Personally have a Superfomance S1 that is a modified and will become more so due to lack of parts. Would not consider it as a good choice for a track car due to the shortage of replacement parts and am not qualified to judge it's relative abilities. But it is still the funnest car that I have ever owned. Buy the best used you can find, pay a little more and you will have the most fun at the least overall expense.

[oilteq]

In terms of out-right performance, no other se7en will touch a V8 Stalker. Or, at least, nothing has conme close at Grassroots Motor Sports Ultimate Car Challenge, at VIR..

 

 

 

But if you really want a fast track car, you need a 1974 Dodge Challenger.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/img/utcc/2010_UTCC_Final.pdf

 

What???

[JBH]

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/med...UTCC_Final.pdf

 

That's a pretty interesting list. I have hit a high 2:12 at VIR in my Superlight with fresh tires. Even with the V8, a 2:00.871 says something about the Stalker's handling. There was a Caterham in the list that did a 2:11 That's pretty fast - not sure if that was a 2010 SLR or the CSR. Maybe someone knows that car.

 

I've driven many different cars on the track (Porsches, BMWs, Formula Fords, etc) and without a doubt the Caterham is the best handling and most fun to drive. Even experienced drivers that ride with me are amazed how easily the car can be maneuvered. Croc has more experience in testing the rotational characteristics of the car, but mine handles upsets very well and always seems to spin in a tight circle when things do go wrong - most of the time never leaving the track.

 

Despite the predictability of the car, I have never felt comfortable with the driver or passenger protection it offers. For that reason I now have a roll cage with side impact bars. I am still more vulnerable that if I was in a production-based car, but it is much better than it was.

 

I know you want a street car that you can track (or vice-versa), but Sevens are really not the best choice for a dual purpose car if safety is high on your list. On that point, you may get some disagreement from others

 

Setting aside the debate on Sevens for a moment, this has me thinking about what might be the best dual purpose car...that's a hard question to answer.

Edited February 24, 2013 by JBH