Need sage advice from the Seven world

[rjmelo21]

Hello everyone,

I've a very general question which I doubt has a direct answer to, but here goes any way. I'm seriously considering purchasing a Seven. I don't have the time or knowledge to build one myself. I need to spend the next 6 months studying/researching what would work best for me. I'm so new to this car that I don't know what I don't know yet. But, I was hoping the veterans here, who have owned and sold Seven replicas could help with a general question. What is the depreciation on these cars? Being a gear head for while, I'm 45, I certainly have a sense of car values of most other marks, but with a "kit car" I have no sense at all. If a well built Caterham or Birkin or other reputable assembler is well cared for, how big a hit does it take over the years. If I plunk down $25K for a nice car and take great care of it and drive a max 3K miles a year, what's the anticipated depreciation? There have to be hundreds of variables involved, but does it loose value alot, a little? This information would be really helpful in deciding if I should take the plunge.

 

Thanks for your time,

 

Rich

[yellowss7]

Ok, I'll bite. It depends. :iagree:

 

First off, get some rides, see what you fit in. What do you plan to do with the car? Drive it on sunny Sundays, autox it, do track days? The initial thrill can wear off very quickly if you only take it out once in a while and then it's just an asset that doesn't get used, and you will tire of it in the garage very quickly.

 

If you are just looking for a toy to play with for a couple of years and the dump it, then you know the answer already. It's not an investment.

 

These cars are meant to be driven and have fun with. That should be your main concern. Will you have the time to drive it and the passion to use it. Otherwise buy some other classic car that has a bigger market. These cars are for those of us with a screw loose. :bs: Tom

[Dan3030]

I'm not a guru, as yellow and many others on this site are. I'd second his suggestion to go for a few rides, know your purpose and make sure you fit.

 

I was lurking on this site for perhaps 2-3 years before making a purchase this spring. In short, just like any purchase, take some time and look through this thread and get a sense of what cars are going for. Find a car you like that seems fairly priced. Ask a few opinions on here once you have a car in mind, to give you the confidence to buy (people are super helpful, just look at the help I received - http://www.usa7s.net/vb/showthread.php?11096-FS-2007-Westfield-Mazda-Sport-2600-Miles-Located-in-North-Carolina)

 

If you buy right, I think you'll find the depreciation is negligible, especially if you're starting with a 7-10 yr old car in the $25k range which will be a Birkin, Westfield or other, not Caterham (priced higher, likely to still hold significant value if not bought new/ nearly new).

 

There will be much more nuanced and informed responses to be sure. Good luck.

[centerfireman]

Agree with the above comments. Sevens are an irrational passion. I had a 1972 (Series IV) Lotus Seven that I had to sell to return to school; 32 years later I purchased a (used) Caterham because once you have driven/owned a Seven they tend to get into your blood. There is no other car that has the same combination of fun, simplicity, performance, uniqueness and "craziness". As noted above, I think if you purchase a good used Seven at a good price (I am partial to Caterhams and I think they hold their value better), and take good care of it, you could probably sell it after a number of years without taking much of a depreciation hit. Good luck...

[Croc]

From all the sale prices I have seen over the last few years I constructed percentage depreciation curves for Caterham, Birkin, Westfield, and Stalker. Caterham and Birkin are close enough to be largely the same when the depreciation curves are expressed as percentages. Maybe the earlier years for Caterham are less steep than Birkin but that sorts itself out as you add more years of age. Westfield curves are not meaningful since there are so few. Stalker curves give meaningless results given the shift from V6's to V8s in recent years - more time and sales needed there to sort out something reliable. Of course when you apply those percentage curves to starting dollars the dollar value is going to be higher in a Caterham at any age point simply because the starting dollar value/price was higher. That should not be taken as proof that Caterhams hold their value better - higher dollar value just means that the original purchaser paid more dollars for their Caterham than the original Birkin purchaser. It also means that Birkins will fall into your designated price point at an earlier age in their life.

 

Depreciation and its relation, resale value, is very much affected by:

- the economy

- season of the year (higher in Summer)

- the maintenance level and quality of presentation

- amount of investment by the owner during their ownership

- the state of title

- the generally limited number of sales which creates statistical volatility

 

Even geography plays an influence as there is a distinct East versus West coast trend. I think there is a small SB100 premium in CA cars for buyers from that state - legacy of the perceived hassles in getting an SB100 pass?

 

At your price point of $25k whether you buy the circa 10yo Birkin or the circa 15+ year Caterham S3 (usually a classic or very early Zetec) then a 3 year ownership depreciation is going to lose you somewhere around $2k at most (give or take) if you keep the car at its current level or better. There is a good chance your actual depreciation is zero over that period if you choose a desirable car that will be easier to sell and put some modest improvements on it.

 

Last time I expressed these views on this forum I was flamed badly - lets see if I start the same again! Always from the Caterham owners... :jester:

[JohnCh]

As much as I enjoy flaming Croc, I must reluctantly agree with his assessment (sorry Mike, I know you expect better of me :jester: .) It also seems that the sweet spot for cars is in the $20-$25k range. Perhaps there is a psychological barrier for many at $25k given this is a purely discretionary purchase -- start pushing beyond that and SWMBO may point out that money is better used for a kitchen remodel. As a result, my belief is that cars in this range are at the bottom end of their depreciation curve provided they are sold in similar condition as to when purchased.

 

That said, regardless of additional depreciation, they are still a great investment. If you can afford to throw out $25k for a toy, you probably have a job that comes with some degree of stress. Nothing takes away stress better than blasting down a winding road in a se7en. Hard to put a value on that.

 

-John

[Kitcat]

First, drive one. You may be shocked at how different the real world experience is than the imaginary world of 7 bliss penned by crazed auto mag scribes. It is noisy, hot, low, and a constant magnet for attention. Also no real storage, certainly no lockable storage and very hard to talk to your passenger, if any one rides with you. Not so great in cold/hot/rainy weather either.

Of course, you already know about the good stuff: you wear it, driving it risks sensory overload, the engine sound is intoxicating,it is incredibly responsive, holds the road as on rails, etc. All true, and them some. So it is a mix of extremes, but it helps to be aware of the negatives.

Depreciation is steep on new purchases. After that it seems to be pretty negligible. So if you buy a Birkin that was $50K 8 years ago for $25K, it is likely you will sell it for about that.

The real cost issue is what will you spend on 2 separate items while you own it:

Upgradeitis. Nearly impossible to resist, we all need stickier tires, more comfortable seats and, invariably, just a bit more power. So you could easliy spend $5-10K making the car "better", a cost you are unlikely to recover on resale.

Repairs/maitenance. This is the great unknown and can be a black hole. As a general rule, these handbuilt cars are far less durable or reliable than a $25K Miata. I bought my current Cat for around $23K and have spent nearly an equal amount fixing all the things that have gone wrong obver the last 4 years(engine rebuild, clutch replacement, half shaft failure, steering wheel failure, 4 fuel pumps expired,fuel liner replaced, fuel system failure, wheel bearing failure, just to truely name a few of the repairs). Since I am not a mechanic, I hired all this work out. If you can do the work yourself, cut this cost in half. And I now, finally, have a reasonably reliable Cat that has run flawlessly for 6 months.

How do you know what problems are lurking? Wish I knw, but I like cars with lots of miles, whih means they are working, rather than cars with almost no miles which can mean they have never been sorted. Unfortunately, in my case, my car had too many miles. I also like cars that have been built by the owner as they typically spare no expense and no time in getting things right. Tom Carlon's Birkin shop would be an exception that comes to mind tho.

Happy hunting. Feel free to send any of us a PM for info, if you are interested in a particular car. We are much more likely to be candid when we arent risking hurting the seller's feelings.

[powderbrake]

I believe that depreciation is the most insignificant consideration for a Seven. Partially, because as noted above, they do not depreciate much past the first owner, and you are talking a used model. So I believe your original question has been answered.

 

You need to ride in one (or more) Sevens. I suggest that you revise your profile so we can see where you reside, and you should post that you would like to meet some local Seven owners, and experience a ride. Even if there is no one close to you, a few hundred mile trip on your part, and even an overnight stay will be a very wise investment on your part. I made a 750 mile trip to Carlisle , PA to see Sevens at the car show, and a 650 mile trip to Dallas to drive an Ultralite similar to the kit which I assembled.

 

I am in St. Louis, and if you want to inspect/drive my WCM Ultralite, you are welcome.

[NVP66S]

I don't disagree with the above comments, and I strongly agree with driving one. My personal requirements were: Daily Driver, Looks Good, Reliable (part of the Daily Driver requirement) and under $30k. I liked the looks of the Birkin, Caterham, and Westfield. I never found a Birkin for sale under $30K, and all the Caterhams for that price looked ratty and were going to need serious maintenance. So the choice was easy. I could get a new Westfield under $30K but I would have to build it. Using the drivetrain from a wrecked Miata was not a problem for me, as they routinely get over 200k miles and my car would never get that many miles. Business took me to England, so I visited the Westfield factory. I was favorably impressed and they sell 250 cars/year, about an equal mix between kits and factory built cars. In 2 years and 3000 miles, the only unscheduled maintenance was to pull the megasquirt and reinstall the Miata ECU. My only regrets were that I should have driven it more in SoCal before moving to West Texas where there are no hills and the roads are straight.

 

But I had to build it.

[jimrankin]

You are not going to get a lot of deprecation on just about any of the "major" 7 types if you are not in a hurry to buy and shop around for a car that is a value at the price point you are using. I'd second the recommendation to look for a car with enough mileage and use to have had the original kinks worked out and one low enough that it's not starting to wear out, which 7's seem to do fairly quickly. Since the cars are so simple most of the wear is relatively inexpensive to deal with, especially if your doing the work yourself.

I would personally try to get a car with electronic fuel injection as once the ECU is dialed in (not even an issue if the motor came with a stock unit) it's usually zero problems with keeping it running perfectly. Very highly tuned motors, especially carbureted ones tend to need a lot of TLC and are more prone to wearing themselves out.

[mrmustang]

If I plunk down $25K for a nice car and take great care of it and drive a max 3K miles a year, what's the anticipated depreciation?

Rich

 

Rich,

 

I cut the rest of your post out, as this is the only line that seems to cut to the quick.

 

While I've read all of the responses so far, not one has stated the following, so I will:

 

"If you are looking at the car as an investment, and you are worried about depreciation, you are buying the car for the wrong reason"

 

With that said, depreciation on a toy such as a "7" replica (figure a nice Birkin, or a SPF S1 in your project price range), if bought used, and bought right, will be a basic wash (minus insurance.taxes,basic maintenance) when it's time to sell. Too many other factors will come in to play, color combination, drivetrain, suspension set up, whether it's a stripper, or fully loaded, all of these and about 100 more, so to respond other than I have would be a waste of my time, and foolish on your part to read any further into it.

 

Buy it, drive it, enjoy it. When it comes down to it and you decide to sell, see what the market is at that time and price the car accordingly. Yes, it really is that simple.

 

Bill S.

[Shoe String Racing]

Good advice above. I don't know what kind of guy you are but you need to talk to a knowledgeable experienced owner and go for a reasonably long ride. You need to reconcile yourself to an emotional unexplainable embrace of the car, not a well thought out rational decision.

 

It's a road legal race car, a 4 wheeled motorcycle, it's not a "car" as the rest of the world defines a car. You have to love being in it by yourself in the twisty bits for it to be a good deal. and only passingly enjoy (or tolerate) everyone who will come up to you in the gas station or sitting at the stop light. Which is another way of saying you have to love it while admit to having a screw loose. Investment and depreciation must be at the bottom of your shopping list.

 

JMHOWTFDIK?

[rjmelo21]

A sincere thank you to everyone who took their time and responded. This is exactly this type of info I was hoping for. I'm not interested in buying a 7 for an investment. It's all about the love of driving. However,if I thought I'd lose most of my buy-in, my calculus would certainly change.

I guess the next step for me is to learn a ton more and most importantly, meet some 7 owners and potentially drive one if I find a generous enough owner. I'm in eastern Massachusetts, so if anyone knows of a local club, please pass along the info. I've certainly seen a couple 7's at local cars and coffee , but haven't been able to track down the owners.

 

Thanks again for all your time and I look forward to learning more about these cool cars.

 

-Rich Melo

[wemtd]

Rich

IIRC there are a few stalkers, caterhams, lotii and at least one westfield under construction in MA. Also several caterhams and birkins in CT if you don't mind a drive.

 

cheers

[Kitcat]

Sevens and Elans was the largest importer of Caterhams for many years. They were in Ayers, right next to you, I think. The owner, Chris Tchorznicki, has semi-retired and moved to St Augustine FL. But he may know of Cats in your vicinity to look at, or drive and maybe even buy. I have always found him to be friendly and helpful. He built the first Caterham I owned and supplied me with parts for 10 years. You can google sevensandelans for his current location/phone, etc.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Kitcat

[Al N.]

Like a few of the other guys who've already chimed in, I'm a serial Seven owner. First a Caterham Superlight R (new) and now a vintage mostly-Lotus Series 2 car. When I sold the Caterham — a fairly high-spec model in its time —*I got a price very close to what I paid for it... not counting all the various upgrades (you know how much an ATL fuel cell costs?!?) I had made to the car in the few years I owned it. I consider those "lost" dollars the cost of ownership.

 

With my new (old) car, my buy-in was substantially lower than with the Caterham, but like Kitcat, I've got at least the same amount into it after sorting/upgrades. Could I have bought it and not done anything? I guess. But I now have a car I like more and that is faster and more reliable than when I first acquired it. I doubt I'll ever sell this one.

 

In terms of which marque/model, same advice as others...drive a few, talk with owners, see what's available when you are truly ready to pull the trigger. If Donkevoorts were more common here in the states, I might have bought one of those instead of the Caterham. Love the lines of those cars.

[yellowss7]

Sevens and Elans was the largest importer of Caterhams for many years. They were in Ayers, right next to you, I think. The owner, Chris Tchorznicki, has semi-retired and moved to St Augustine FL. But he may know of Cats in your vicinity to look at, or drive and maybe even buy. I have always found him to be friendly and helpful. He built the first Caterham I owned and supplied me with parts for 10 years. You can google sevensandelans for his current location/phone, etc.

 

:bs::bs: There are some of us that have a very different opinion of that guy. :deadhorse::deadhorse:

[Ian7]

:bs::bs: There are some of us that have a very different opinion of that guy. :deadhorse::deadhorse:

 

ditto

[philso]

You may want to get in touch with a group of Lotus owners near you (http://lotuscarclub.org/local-chapters/).

 

I am most likely to start building a Stalker MX-5 next year. The group in Houston has been very helpful and encouraging including letting me visit their collections. A couple of them are serial 7 owners, mostly Caterhams. Is it "serial" when they buy 3-4 but don't sell them? One was gracious enough to let me take one of his cars for an extended (>100 miles) drive that has had a significant effect on my choices for the various options available. Some of these options may be difficult to retrofit so you will want to buy one with them installed already. They have given me recommendations for several places in the Houston area that specialize in servicing specialty vehicles such as the 7. I have been able to evaluate some of the accessories/components, say mirrors and seats, when installed on a 7. I will using the meetup this weekend as an opportunity to pick the brains of several of the members for details on how they got their cars registered here in Texas. Lastly, once you get your 7, there may be the opportunity to go on group drives with your local group.

 

There have been a few comments about "letting the first owner sort out the car for you". I know at least one local Caterham owner had to spend significant time and effort sorting out his car even though it was purchased as a turn-key, directly from a dealer who did the assembly work.

[MPG]

Didn't see this thread because I haven't been on much recently, but I'm guessing I'm probably the Westfield mentioned above. I'm in Lexington MA. I don't know about clubs, but I do know someone with a cat (I think the last one Chris T did) and someone with an S2. So I might be able to help with some questions. If you want to connect with more people who know the differences between the different types, I would suggest going out to Lime Rock for the historics in a couple of weeks. There'll be a lot in the parking lot and the owner's are all very friendly.

 

Can't help you with anything about resale value, that's far too sensible a question for what I've been doing. Mine's more a construction toy than a car. A lot of fun though:

 

http://blog.garritys.org/2016/06/fun-in-the-sun.html

 

BTW, I also ran into a local owner of a Westfield 11 the other day. That's a really sweet toy.