About to Purchase First 7 and Need Advice!

[Randy Flowers]

Hey out there.

I am 62 years old and have salivated/dreamed of owning/driving a 7 since I saw them race in the 60s (my Dad used to flag the races).  I am now finally able to put forward the 'entry fee' of $49K to get into a gorgeous one (see attached pics!) that is spec'ed almost exactly as if I had ordered myself from Caterham.  And it was put together by Road and Track magazine as a project car for an article series.  Road and Track then sold it to Rocky Mountain Caterham.  One of the Rocky Mountain Caterham owners (Josh) drove it as his personal Caterham for awhile, but now they have put it on the market at $49K and I have already put down a deposit to hold it.  It is EXACTLY how I would want it and I can't imagine ever finding another Caterham that is quite this perfect for what I want, not unless I order it from the factory.  FYI that my modded Miata is also Gulf Blue, and my first car (1962 TR4) was Gulf Blue, and my Caterham always had to be Gulf Blue. 

I need advice quickly as we are having a local friend go out and inspect it in person in Colorado next Wednesday and I need to make a final decision soon after that.  I appreciate any advice upfront!  

 

I am feeling crazy explaining this idea to others and I would feel terrible if it turned out to be a big mistake.
Two things are MUSTS for me to feel good about walking into this.

 

1) I need to know that if I take good care of it, but end up needing to sell it in a few years or even 10+ years, that it will mostly hold its resale value.  That I will be able to sell this if I need to in the next few years for very close to what I paid for it, and that I will be able to sell it in 10+ years for maybe $10-15K less value ($49K to $35K type of thing).  Is that true?  I am justifying this purchase with the idea that if I can afford the 'entry fee' of $49K, that I will then be able to own and drive a 7 (finally!) for the next 10-15 years just for the cost of a little depreciation + maintenance + insurance.  Then, when I can't drive it anymore, I will sell it and get 75%-ish of what I paid for it back (assuming still in top condition).  Is that a true assumption?

 

2) I am not a mechanic or gear-head.  I can do simple maintenance things or change a flat, etc, but that is about it.  I am being told by Rocky Mountain that the newer Caterhams with the modern Ford engines and Miata gearboxes are much more reliable than the old Kent Weber carbed leaking oil Caterhams.  I have a personal friend who is a freelance vintage car mechanic that is just a block away, and he has agreed to be my dedicated Caterham mechanic.  I also have a close vintage British car shop on the hook for help.   I want to learn to do all the important maintenance things like changing oil, changing brakes, etc myself, but I would not have the expertise to figure out an issue if the car dies on me on the road.  I am worried I will be towing it to the shop many times a year due to something breaking, overheating, etc due to it being such a custom car.  Also, very concerned about something going wrong on such a custom car that causes me to burn the engine up before I realize there is an issue.  The one I am buying seems very well sorted out and everything in it is basically brand new with the modern engine/gearbox, etc, so I would think that it would be quite reliable once it was initially sorted out, assuming proper maintenance.  Is that true?  I am not expecting it to be brand new Miata level reliable, but I need it to be pretty reliable.  Will I be able to properly maintain it with my mechanic friend and the Vintage car shop without it being a money pit constantly with issues that I need other's help fixing? 

Here are the specs:

 

• S3 metric chassis (standard floors),
• Gulf Blue with ballistic orange nose band and bonnet stripe
• 152bhp 1600 Sigma
• 3.91 limited slip differential
• 5 speed gearbox
• 13″ black Apollo wheels with polished lips and Avon ZZS
• Sports suspension with adjustable spring perches, widetrack front suspension, and front / rear anti roll bars
• Full weather gear, windscreen, sidescreens, hood
• Interchangeable aeroscreen
• Half hood and half doors
• Leather seats
• 3 point inertia reel seatbelts 
• Momo steering wheel
• Black pack and black aero filler cap
• Cornerweighted for 180lb driver + half tank fuel. Set up for fast road use and occasional trackdays.
• Titled and registered in Colorado with a State of Colorado assigned VIN.
• 2,793 miles.
• Consignment sale on behalf of owner. Seven is located at our Golden, Colorado warehouse. We can coordinate enclosed carrier transport anywhere in the lower 48 states.

 

Thanks!
Randy

 

---

 

 

Edited May 10 by Randy Flowers

[mrmustang]

First, welcome to the madness, once you start driving, it's an addiction difficult to kick.

 

 

As for your two basic questions:

 

1: The market is constantly changing at the whim of buyers and sellers, some have are generational, others, like the Cobra community, keep building more cars, just like Caterham. If you are looking at this as an investment, forget it, it's a toy, and nothing more and not an investment, even if you stick it in a bubble and place it in the middle of your livingroom, it's still going to depreciate.

2: The newer Caterham offerings, when well built, will need minimum maintenance, oil and fluids, lube the chassis, check tires and brakes, and away you go. If this is a new build, you will need to occasionally check nuts, bolts, suspension as the car does vibrate more than your typical daily driver.

 

Enjoy your time behind the wheel, there is almost nothing else like it on the road today.

 

 

Bill S.

[Vovchandr]

I think you're very reasonable with your needs and expectations of value and reliability and you should be safe on both of those. 

 

At the current market rate it seems that ANY running Caterham of any age or spec goes for $25k easy. Newer specs tend to go for $35k or higher depending on the spec with and miles. Without having a crystal ball I expect the values only to become stronger with the bleak future for enthusiasts. 

 

Reliability should be of no concern for the platform with the only caveat of people who put it together. In this case is was in good hands. 

 

It looks like a great trim with a great amount of add-ons and in your perfect color. I say stop worrying, commit and start enjoying it. 

 

Don't know what state you're in and whether you will have registration problems however. 

[speedwagon]

Nothing in life is certain, including life itself.   Talk to one of those Enron stockholders if you do not believe that.

[JohnCh]

Echoing the above, recent history has shown Caterham's hold their value well, but there is no way to predict that will remain true in the future, particularly in 10+ years.  If, however, the objective is to only own the car for a year or two with minimal cost of ownership over that period, then that seems a reasonable risk.  But risk is always present in this type of situation.  You need to be comfortable with that.

 

Reliability is good, but like resale value, there is no certainty that will be your experience with this specific car.  Pick the most reliable new car brand out there and some owners will still have issues, hence the reason there are still warranty and Lemon Law claims.  One good thing about the Caterham, or any se7en, is that for the most part, they are easy to work on and they lack many of the modern convenience and safety features that can go wrong in new cars.  i.e. the set of things that can break is much less.  

 

Although you didn't ask about Josh, I will say that in my dealings with him over the past few years, he has always impressed me.  Very responsive, helpful, and knowledgeable.  I would never hesitate to buy from him.

 

Oh, and one last thing.  These cars are life changing.  They are on an entirely different level of engagement than other cars and can reset your perspective on driving fun.  They are worth the risk  

[CBuff]

Plus 1 for Josh. If he has gone thru the car you can’t really ask for more assurance than that. Great guy and one of the most knowledgeable about the 7. 
 

Fettling a bit is also part of the ownership fun. I am not that mechanically inclined but this website is a great resource for any problem solving. 

[Kitcat]

The future is hard to predict. But given the trend to extremely heavy, full electric cars, I think these se7ens, including Caterhams, will only become more valuable.

 

Many would argue that this particular Caterham, with its moderately powerful Sigma engine, is truer to the original Seven's ethos than the more popular/powerful Duratec engines.

 

It makes sense to plan for higher maintenance costs than a modern car, like a Miata. I have owned 3 Miata's and 2 Caterhams and 1 Birkin and the reliability of each was variable but, overall the Miata's were less problematic.

 

That said, I have been stranded 2x in my '19 Miata by the mechanical/electrical gremlins that are part of today's super sophisticated, computer driven, operating systems.

 

A bigger issue is the occasional difficulty in finding replacement parts. Most competent mechanics enjoy working on these cars, but I waited 3-6 months for the easily installed part to actually be available. Assuming that this is a fun, special occasion car, that should not be a overwhelming barrier. 

I  bought my first Caterham at age 60 and sold my last one at age 75. And I enjoyed every minute with zero regrets.

[kayentaskier]

Ditto all of the above comments. I don't want to speak for Josh, so you should privately verify, but I'm pretty sure Josh performed a complete post build inspection on this car when the R&T team finished assembling it. If Josh did that, then you should feel pretty confident it wwas assembled correctly. In regard to getting most of your money back in the future, I agree with others that  it's impossible to predict 10 years out. However, I recently sold my 2020 420R SV, with about 7,000 miles on it for effectively what I paid for it. Of course, I did some upgrades during the time, but still I was happy with the sales price.

 

In the time I had the car, I had two failures, one which required towing. The first was related to the accelerator cable, it did not fail like on older 7s, but instead slipped off it's mounting. It took me 20 minutes on the side of the road to get it running. I was in the middle of no where, texted Josh, he responded right away, had me take a couple of pics and he told me how to fix it. During the next service, Josh revised the mounting method, which is probably now included in all the cars he builds. The second failure was was caused by a Caterham employee failing to tighten one of the alternator bolts to the proper spec, the alternator slipped off the block while I was driving.  That bolt was not one you would normally check while building the car. My guess is Josh now checks it every time he builds a car. My kit was one of the last ones leaving Dartford before the factory was shutdown due to Covid, so likely employees were somewhat distracted. Other than those two issues the car was very reliable.

[Vovchandr]

If you want reliability I personally don't recommend buying a 2001 SLR that sat around for almost 20 years with few miles. 

 

Otherwise you should be good 

[panamericano]

I think that you are in excellent shape.  As good as any purchase on the $ side, and better than most Seven purchases on the reliability side. 

SO:

 

Let the local friendly mechanic really get to know the car.  If he's a real mechanic, not a "remove & replace" technician, he will get along great with such a simple car.  Use him consistently if he's good.

 

I had Hagerty's insurance for the 10+ years with my Birkin and could not be more pleased.  Get the 50 mile towing.  You never know.  I went a year before I felt the car was reliable enough to run around without a tool bag.  You should be much better off than I was, but it's nice not to worry about how to get it to the shop if needed.

 

Relax and enjoy it. 

[IamScotticus]

I'll chime.

Reliable?  Depends.  These 7s can be screwed together well and the car shakes itself apart.  It's part of the bonding process and journey.   

 

Price?  With all the 7s that show up for sale,  $25k is about right for a good 7, even a Crossflow.  I think you could have your tucas three inches off the ground for half of what you're looking at.  But, it's the whole package and this is your your chance to get it.  

 

Investment?  Nope.  The next guy will always haggle you down.  Wear and tear, damage, etc.  You can't be looking at the resale.  If you can't enjoy the 7 without worrying about the money hit later, buy a cheaper Caterham.   They're all very similar.  Just get a DeDion.

 

Maintenance?  This is not reliable transportation.  If a 7 is reliable,  someone knows what they're doing.  I would encourage you to "get into the car".  Learn all you don't know so you aren't reliant on someone else.  That may not be in your priorities.  Doesn’t a aircraft pilot know his craft well? Absolutely, inside and out.  Its a very simple car really.  Knowing the workings is being pit crew and chief mechanic for your race car. 

 

I'm not going to say you would do this, but here's a story.

I knew a software engineer type who found his dream 7 for sale.  It was a used race beater with the typical mods.  Well sorted.  It was bought and shipped to him via a car currier.  He asked me to come by and give him advice on how to operate the car (red flag!)  I got there and he had the biggest grin, he was so proud of himself.  He had connected the battery and driven the 7.  I saw it coming.  I opened the coolant cap, no coolant.  Probably no oil either.  The car had been prepared for shipping and fluids were drained.  I got out of there quick and the blame game started between buyer and seller.

KNOW YOUR CAR.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by IamScotticus

[Randy Flowers]

Thank you for all your responses!  Yall are great (I am from Texas originally, now Oregon).  I am still in a bit of a shock that this looks to be happening. 

 

I want to do it right and learn all the basics of taking care of it properly.  I am not expecting it to be as reliable as the Miata, but if we learn how to properly care for it, i am hoping for a pretty reliable car with occasional issues. 

 

I read the R&T articles (that stopped suddenly before getting to the driving tests) and it is a tad disconcerting that so many people participated in the build and a number of them sounded like relatively novice mechanics.  They did have some gurus there overseeing everything though.  So, hopefully they did put it together well, but Josh wrote this to me about the car, so the car does sound quite well sorted out along with being basically new:

 

"As to the car itself, I've given it an inspection here as we do with all the Sevens that come through and it is in lovely shape, as good as any "used" Seven can be. All fluids, bolts, hoses, etc are as they should be and it is in excellent condition. Also I was the first owner of this car myself, from 0 through 515 miles, so I know it very well. I also did the suspension setup around my weight (180lbs). The current owner bought it from me a few years ago and did regular country drives of about 50 miles at a time... just what a Seven likes to keep healthy."

 

I don't want to learn how to do engine work or change a clutch, but i am determined to find people that can hand hold me to teach a novice how to properly maintain the 7, including things like tightening bolts, lubing, etc.  I want to be taught what things to look out for as well.   I want to learn how to clean it properly, change the oil, etc along with understanding when/how often various maintenance should occur. 

 

My mechanic has a friend near Rocky Mountain Caterham that has a lot of car knowledge and lots of old sports/race cars, and he is supposed to be going up there to check the car out in person this Wednesday. 

 

My friend here in Eugene has agreed to be my dedicated mechanic for it.  He lives just down the street as well. 

 

Josh has been great so far, so was his Dad.  Josh said that he would do a Zoom meeting if I wanted to, and I am going to take him up on doing a Zoom meeting to see the car and to see/hear it driving if that would be possible.  Also, I am planning on asking Josh if he or someone else there could do a Zoom meeting or two with myself and my mechanic friend and teach us all the maintenance, tips and things to look out for and what the maintenance schedule should be.  I would be willing to pay Rocky Mountain Caterham for them to train us via Zoom in all the proper Caterham care, but I am not sure they would be willing to do that or how much they would charge for something like that.  Once we get it here, my mechanic can help me learn how to actually do the maintenance.  

 

No doubt there are lots of other 7 owners in the Pacific Northwest that would also be willing to give us tips and advice/help.  Part of the process will be finding them and meeting them Plus, sounds like we have Rocky Mountain as a resource for issues as well.

 

I was about to call Hagerty.  I did a pre-quote and it came back as $1200 per year for $50K comp/collision with 5K mile limit.   I was told it is less than $500 per year for something like that.  I was wanting a 4-5K limit if possible to give enough miles to go to some car events/shows or other short trips, although I do have the Miata as well and lately I really only drive 4K per year total since I work from home.  So, maybe I need less miles per year from Hagerty than I think for the 7. 

What are yall paying for Hagerty comp/collision, for what value of car and what miles limits? 

 

Also, i don't plan on doing any tracking at all until i have lived with the car for awhile and gotten to know it better, but in a future year if i wanted to track the car you would have to tell Hagerty about that and even if i rarely go to the track and drive very carefully there, i expect the moment i tell them i am tracking it, they will jack up the rate quite a bit.  True?

 

I have been bitten by the bug.  I melt every time i look at pics of the car

 

Thanks!

Randy

 

 

 

Edited May 11 by Randy Flowers

[Vovchandr]

Quick comment in regards to Hagerty and track use and jacking up rates. They won't care because they simply won't cover it. Almost no regular insurance coverage covers track days. You'll need a special policy for the specific track days bought for those specific days to be covered in addition. 

[Croc]

20 hours ago, kayentaskier said:

 I'm pretty sure Josh performed a complete post build inspection on this car when the R&T team finished assembling it.

 

He did - I asked about that after the article finished because I was curious to hear how bad their build was.  They did pretty well to their credit.

[CBuff]

Insurance

Thus far I have only done online quotes and not locked in a policy (waiting on my vin assignment). Hagerty was more expensive (over 2k per year). But that is based on a new 420 with a much higher agreed value.  I also live in New York City which I can only imagine jacks things up a bit as well. Grundy came in lower at $1200 a year.  But again these are not finalized and locked numbers.  And not fully flushed out mileage and other restrictions.  Hagerty seems to be the best to deal with and when others have filed claims. They also have a towing service as part of their drivers club (I think you can get 100 or 200 miles of flatbed towing included). A question in their online quote asked about if I would be tracking the car. By selecting this vs deselecting it had a negligee effect on the quote (as vlad mentioned it would NOT be covered ). 
 

Track day insurance is by the day or can be purchased in blocks of days and then assigned to specific dates/tracks. A very loose rule of thumb is 1% of agreed value per day. ($50k = $500/day). I have never done the track insurance on my daily. Not sure about doing it on my 7 when it arrives shortly. 
 

I defer to the folks on here who have far more experience with maintenance and upkeep. I would think a knowledgeable mechanic would be able to look over the car and understand it relatively quickly. Any quirks specific to the car can be researched or posed to the very experienced folks on this and other sites.  

[Croc]

2 hours ago, Randy Flowers said:

Also, i don't plan on doing any tracking at all until i have lived with the car for awhile and gotten to know it better, but in a future year if i wanted to track the car you would have to tell Hagerty about that and even if i rarely go to the track and drive very carefully there, i expect the moment i tell them i am tracking it, they will jack up the rate quite a bit.  True?

 

Hagerty offer track days and offer track day insurance.  Their standard insurance policy does not cover you on track. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Randy Flowers said:

What are yall paying for Hagerty comp/collision, for what value of car and what miles limits? 

 

 

Be careful with insurance comparisons.  Insurance is state based.  Premiums are based on a bunch of location stats plus your individual driving record.  The standard mileage for Hagerty is usually 3K per year.   They have checked me once in 20 years.  The agreed value is a fair point of comparison.  Hagerty historically was a Managing General Agent and relied on other insurance companies to provide the state-admitted insurance policy paper (with the Hagerty branding.  While they have now bought their own licensed carrier it did not cover all states and they were still working through the regulatory stuff to get their own admitted insurance policy paper which takes a long time.  I think for Oregon, Hagerty was using Essentia Insurance which is owned by Markel out of Bermuda (they are good don't worry).

 

The thing you need to check is what limits for liability and property damage Hagerty have given you and whether they match where your umbrella personal liability policy starts at.  If it does not match then you have just exposed yourself to potential liability.

 

 

 

On 5/10/2024 at 3:00 AM, Randy Flowers said:

I need to know that if I take good care of it, but end up needing to sell it in a few years or even 10+ years, that it will mostly hold its resale value.  That I will be able to sell this if I need to in the next few years for very close to what I paid for it, and that I will be able to sell it in 10+ years for maybe $10-15K less value ($49K to $35K type of thing).  Is that true? 

 

 

Its not an investment.  No guarantees but if the future holds true to how its played out over the last 10-15 years then I would expect that the value initially declines in the 0-5 year mark - call it $10K worst case over that time.  The value then continues to very slowly decline to reaching a plateau from 10-20 years - it reaches its floor around 20-25 years.  Specialist cars are usually inflating at the inflation rate (or more if really collectible) by their 25 year age mark.  

 

Caterhams that are early 2000s are bringing $30-40K today 20 years on - depending on condition, spec level, etc.  They were were being sold at $40-50K+ original price then.  Your $10-15K value loss/depreciation estimate is fairly good.  

 

However, you are quoting nominal prices.  Over time the real value (i.e. inflation adjusted) has declined.  So a dollar today will be worth roughly 15-20% less 10 years from now than it is today.  Add that to your nominal depreciation for a true value check. 

 

So its not an investment but it is a fairly decent proposition in having automotive fun with far less of a dent to the wallet than say buying a new sports car like a Miata or Nissan or Toyota or BMW.  Keeps it in a better proportion. 

 

The two wild cards in all of this are:

1) politicians talking about phasing out internal combustion.  It is possible with their stupid logic that they jack up emissions testing retroactively and then we end up with what is known as "stranded assets"   I doubt it but its possible.  But you should still be able to use a Caterham on track.

 

2) The aging out of the population.  We tend to desire the cars of our early teenage years.  Roll forward to when us folks have money to acquire these cars - usually at the 20-25 year mark, thats when the cars start to boom in value.  Pre-war cars used to bring top dollars but they do not now as their population has mostly aged out.  You are starting to see relative declines in 1950s-60s car values now but it will take a lot of time for the boomers to roll off.  You are also seeing the rise in values of 1980s-90s classics as that population cohort ages into their prime.  Most people who got into se7ens have some recollection of the Lotus seven who are an aging cohort.  The later folks got hooked some other way.  Is the population of se7en buyers aging out in net head count or holding static?  Gut feel with numbers tells me its aging out very slowly. Ask me again in 10 years!

 

The other way to consider value - its cheaper than a divorce and about half the price of what you pay for a kitchen renovation in Manhattan and you get to put a smile on your face and keep you sanity.  I sound like a Mastercard commercial eh?

[Croc]

39 minutes ago, CBuff said:

By selecting this vs deselecting it had a negligee effect on the quote (as vlad mentioned it would NOT be covered ). 

 

 

 

 

Charlie - Clear your cookies on your browser before you buy.  The major insurance companies track that shit to pre-populate your quote next time you come to buy and you do not want to be checking price options on answers that only have one correct legal answer.  No idea if Hagerty does that but don't take the risk. 

 

 

[CBuff]

Copy Mike. Thanks.  VIN assignment inspection happening Wed.  Fingers crossed.  Still going back and forth with safety tech at dmv.  Arg. 

[Lotusfan]

@Randy Flowers This is not meant to be a criticism, but you are way over-thinking this. You have gotten great assurances from others about Josh at Rocky Mountain, and he owned the car after R&T and it has been driven a bit since then, so what else is there to worry about with the build and car itself? You have 2 sources of help with repairs and maintenance and you can easily see that Caterhams hold their value pretty well as long as they don’t have horrible histories of wrecks and if you have an accident in it you probably have more to worry about than re-sale value. Buy it before someone else does as you’ve said that it checks all of your boxes as if you ordered it yourself. You will not regret taking ownership off of your bucket list.

[Davemk1]

I'll throw this out there even though it doesn't address the questions originally asked -

 

If you've never driven a Seven you should drive one before you buy one. I've known more than a few people who have loved the idea of Seven who drove it a few times and then wanted out. The cars leave the driver very exposed and vulnerable and some people don't enjoy that sensation. I had one tell me that they got a ride in a Miata once and they loved that and therefore a Seven will be great. A Miata feels like Lincoln town car compared to a Seven. Your head is at about the height of a semi truck's lug nuts. A Camry next to you at a light will look like an SUV.

 

If it's hot you'll be hot, if cold you'll be cold, if wet...you guessed it...you'll be wet. A drive will leave you dusty and dirty even with side curtains. The wind noise and buffeting are not like anything else out there.

 

I don't want to discourage you from owning a Seven. I think they are offer the most pure driving experience that one can use on a public road. I've owned two and have put about 30,000 miles on them collectively. That said they are not for everyone and there is zero shame in that. If you don't like it, you simply don't like it. But buying one without ever driving one feels risky to me. It will be worth every cent and every minute it takes to travel to see the car and drive it.

 

I hope you end up trying it and loving it...if you don't love it you'll have saved yourself a lot of grief. Good luck to you and enjoy the process.

 

dave