The Regular Summary of Classified Ads of Se7ens Found For Sale

[Anthony]

I didn't see this posted here yet, 1986 Caterham Cosworth BDR
1986 Caterham Super Seven Cosworth BDR for Sale - Cars & Bids (carsandbids.com)

[CBuff]

Rotary-Powered Caterham Super Seven
 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1977-caterham-super-seven-3/
 

 

[Cueball1]

Seems like that rotary car would be a hoot.  120 miles in 3 years of ownership?  What a shame.  Interesting looking collection of stuff the seller has though. 

[theDreamer]

If only the BDR seven was in the condition and location of the rotary car... Both are projects but one much more so than the other.

[11Budlite]

5 hours ago, Anthony said:

I didn't see this posted here yet, 1986 Caterham Cosworth BDR
1986 Caterham Super Seven Cosworth BDR for Sale - Cars & Bids (carsandbids.com)

 

I didn't see it in the listing, but is there any way to tell if this is a Caterham supplied originally with a BDR? The year 1986 would be an appropriate year for a 1600 BDR and I believe they started offering the 1700 around 1986 too.

[MV8]

The vin plate is in amazing condition considering the rest of the car, despite some very big maintenance bills. The number falls after the first 1600 BDR. It' be fun to make those minor, easy fixes one-per-weekend, keeping it driveable. I wonder about the highway gearing for the axle and 5th.

 

Good to see the rotary kept the mech oil metering.

Edited August 22, 2023 by MV8

[theDreamer]

A quick search shows that at least the one 1.7 BDR Caterham I found had the Engine No. stamped in place. This car has no such stamp. Doesn't mean it didn't come with the BDR or that the 1.7 I found hasn't had a new plate made. I guess you could contact Caterham for info but the auction will be over be over by the time you hear back.

 

[Vovchandr]

I don't see that listing going high at all. Maybe 20 tops? It's on cars and bids, older and has issues. Lots going against it. 

[Carz01]

Check image #76 on the BDA Caterham, customer supplier engine, installed January 2018

[IamScotticus]

A BDR with 5 spd.

Good for $20k.  PO probably had more than that In it.

Possibly pushing the limits of that live axle.

Edited August 23, 2023 by IamScotticus

[Baptistelake]

The original 1600 BDR Cosworth twin cam head was bolted to a Ford 1600 block with 40 DOCE carbs, 140 hp (83-92). In 1986 (-99) Caterham introduced the 1700 BDR - head bolted to a Ford 1700 block 45 DOCE carbs, 160 HP. Topic covered in Chris Rees' book. Really is a thing.

 

You may be thinking of the Ford Crossflow 1700 which was available at the same time but only produced 135hp. The BDR was a more powerful and more expensive option. 

[IamScotticus]

1 hour ago, Baptistelake said:

The original 1600 BDR Cosworth twin cam head was bolted to a Ford 1600 block with 40 DOCE carbs, 140 hp (83-92). In 1986 (-99) Caterham introduced the 1700 BDR - head bolted to a Ford 1700 block 45 DOCE carbs, 160 HP. Topic covered in Chris Rees' book. Really is a thing.

 

You may be thinking of the Ford Crossflow 1700 which was available at the same time but only produced 135hp. The BDR was a more powerful and more expensive option. 

Welcome to the forum!

Don't be a stranger.

[theDreamer]

Yo @Baptistelake the wife and I used to ride all over that area. Now I'm looking for a seven so I can drive those roads.

[Croc]

19 hours ago, Anthony said:

I didn't see this posted here yet, 1986 Caterham Cosworth BDR
1986 Caterham Super Seven Cosworth BDR for Sale - Cars & Bids (carsandbids.com)

 

 

This car was not an original Caterham BDR.  It was brought in as a kit without engine (hence no stamping on VIN plate).  This was required by US import rules of the time (and today). 

 

VIN decipher confirms it as a pre-1990 Caterham Series 3 with the Marina Ital live axle and a pre-1990 version of the long cockpit.

 

Looking at the engine makes me think it is a BDA and not a BDG or BDR.  Block is not alloy as I would expect for a genuine BDG/BDR.  Block looks cast which I infer as the crossflow bottom end mated to the BD head, making it a BDA.  In the USA, the BDA was known as the BDD - same engine but some terminology difference that people get confused by.   While BDA were 1600cc originally, a popular mod at the time was to bore out to 1700cc to make it a BDA Plus.  Hart engines even bored them out to 1840cc in the 1970s.   If they built this engine starting with the 1700cc cross flow block then that is the likely spec - sort of confirmed in the engine rebuild invoice. 

 

Reviewing the engine build invoice in 2017 (photo 77 on) is intriguing.  Reads as if it was a rebuild of the cross flow into the BDA?   Not sure why they re-used some parts instead of new? 

 

A 1600cc BDA in the late 1960s would give you 120hp.  Given the extra 100cc and the better materials, oil, carbs, and engine tuning knowledge today, I would expect this BDA+ to be in the 150hp area based on a similar build by another forum member a few years back.  indeed the ad quotes 148hp but no dyno plot I could see.   So a modest upgrade in HP over the standard 1700cc cross flow of roughly 135hp.  If it were a BDR then hp would be 200hp region. 

 

 

 

 

[11Budlite]

34 minutes ago, Croc said:

 

 

This car was not an original Caterham BDR.  It was brought in as a kit without engine (hence no stamping on VIN plate).  This was required by US import rules of the time (and today). 

 

VIN decipher confirms it as a pre-1990 Caterham Series 3 with the Marina Ital live axle and a pre-1990 version of the long cockpit.

 

Looking at the engine makes me think it is a BDA and not a BDG or BDR.  Block is not alloy as I would expect for a genuine BDG/BDR.  Block looks cast which I infer as the crossflow bottom end mated to the BD head, making it a BDA.  In the USA, the BDA was known as the BDD - same engine but some terminology difference that people get confused by.   While BDA were 1600cc originally, a popular mod at the time was to bore out to 1700cc to make it a BDA Plus.  Hart engines even bored them out to 1840cc in the 1970s.   If they built this engine starting with the 1700cc cross flow block then that is the likely spec - sort of confirmed in the engine rebuild invoice. 

 

Reviewing the engine build invoice in 2017 (photo 77 on) is intriguing.  Reads as if it was a rebuild of the cross flow into the BDA?   Not sure why they re-used some parts instead of new? 

 

A 1600cc BDA in the late 1960s would give you 120hp.  Given the extra 100cc and the better materials, oil, carbs, and engine tuning knowledge today, I would expect this BDA+ to be in the 150hp area based on a similar build by another forum member a few years back.  indeed the ad quotes 148hp but no dyno plot I could see.   So a modest upgrade in HP over the standard 1700cc cross flow of roughly 135hp.  If it were a BDR then hp would be 200hp region. 

 

 

 

 

 

Croc - Very seldom would I ever question your automotive knowledge, but everything I've ever read stated that the BDR was used just for a Caterham and was an upgraded BD head on a Xflow bottom end. Either 1.6L or 1.7L and a cast iron block. The BDG was a bigger 2.0L engine, more highly developed for F2, and most were produced with an aluminum block. Lot's of info here: https://historicmotorsportcentral.com/2014/04/16/the-cosworth-bd-engine/ 

[wdb]

I'm intrigued by that Cars&Bids Caterham but there are a couple of things bothering me.

• How did it get that fender gash, plus another fender was replaced? Hm.
• Current owner only added 200 miles. Not confidence inspiring.
• The cold start video sounds to me as though the car is running on 3 cylinders.

Definitely a project. Even more so than my car, I suspect.

[Kitcat]

Hmmm, my Caterham got its fender gash when I bumped into our snowblower:).

 

This car seems to have been given significant love: $11K in maintenance receipts from Kapana in ‘18 and a subsequent $9K BDR rebuild.

 

It is far from perfect but seems to have been well loved. I agree the dyno results from the rebuild could add a lot to knowing how to value this. For instance, my “135 hp” 1700cc X-Flow made all of 98 hp on the dyno. I suspect this BDR was mid 120’s(similar to a stock Zetec). Maybe more depending on how comprehensive the rebuild was.

 

As I recall, Stuart/Jeffs’s similar older blue Cat with a BDA/BDR sold for roughly $50K last year on BAT.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Kitcat

[Croc]

4 hours ago, 11Budlite said:

 

Croc - Very seldom would I ever question your automotive knowledge, but everything I've ever read stated that the BDR was used just for a Caterham and was an upgraded BD head on a Xflow bottom end. Either 1.6L or 1.7L and a cast iron block. The BDG was a bigger 2.0L engine, more highly developed for F2, and most were produced with an aluminum block. Lot's of info here: https://historicmotorsportcentral.com/2014/04/16/the-cosworth-bd-engine/ 

 

Hi Bruce, This is one of those yes and no types of things.  The nomenclature of Ford BD engines is really messy.  Yes Caterham did the cross flow cast iron block and slap the BD head on it and call it a BDR  but Ford never did that in its motorsports program.  It was only a Caterham thing which I suspect was done for cost and availability of cross flow blocks at the time.  The Ford Escorts also used a alloy block BDR engine in their official motorsport program for rallying and BTCC that was alloy block.  The Escorts later went to BDG (I want one of those! ).    I

 

The Ford BDR for the Ford Escorts was higher hp than any BDR by Caterham as the alloy block could handle higher revs - so the hp result was a LOT higher in the Escort BDR vs the Caterham BDR.   Despite both being called BDR they are clearly different engine specs.   

 

Different sources attribute different things.  The website you linked is very good but it is contradicted by other books and sources.  I have no idea what the real story is but it is confusing and your reference may well be right.

 

This car for sale is not a Caterham BDR.  It was not one of the series produced in the UK by Caterham which would be evidenced via the chassis number being coded as one of the BDR series.  This is clearly a crossflow car from its origin.   Does the engine in this car for sale match what Caterham claimed for its BDR in the 1980s?  No.  Depending on who you reference - Rees, Dennis, or any number of the websites the Caterham BDR series hp ranged from 175-200hp.  The car for auction is spec'ed for around 150hp based on what I see in the rebuild invoice. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, wdb said:

... there are a couple of things bothering me.

• Current owner only added 200 miles. Not confidence inspiring.
• The cold start video sounds to me as though the car is running on 3 cylinders.

 

Yes it does sound like a bag of bolts in the video but I suspect it is carb jets clogged from lack of use.  Not sure its a big project though.  Lots to commend it. 

[JohnCh]

2 hours ago, wdb said:

• Current owner only added 200 miles. Not confidence inspiring.

 

I suspect that's a typo.  It reads the seller has added 200 miles since acquiring the car in 2011.  Mileage claimed is ~43,800 with an odometer photo showing 43,758.  Yet the invoice from Kampena in 2018 lists mileage as 42,992.  

[Cueball1]

Cincy Birkin is loaded and on it's way!  Thank you all for your help and input on this purchase.  Hats off particularly to kitkat for looking at it for me.  Great group of folks here!