coffee break Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Deep pockets required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) Considering how much that car went for on Bringatrailer.com recently, you could consider this car a bargain given its higher spec and performance. Also, I don't think you can't get a new 480/485 in the US anymore. You could get a lesser model and build the motor, but that will cost you as well. If I didn't want an S3, and to build it myself, I would have considered buying that car. Also, listed price is asking- everything is negotiable. Edited July 3, 2020 by KnifeySpoony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 (edited) The recent BAT auction car has certainly confused values. $45,500 for a 2001 Zetec S3 with only fairly basic options and modest circa 140hp, albeit in very nice condition, is extraordinary. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/zetec-powered-super-seven-5-speed/ It does not make sense when you can buy a new Caterham 420R (210hp) kit at its basic level from $48k (refer Caterham USA website) or a new Caterham 310SV kit with better spec and more hp here (including powertrain) for $42K http://www.beachmanracing.com/inventory Add $5k for assembly and you are wheelspinning down the road. I think the differentiation for value was its title in CA as a 1967 Lotus 7. Cars with more 'flexible' titling from the past days of DMVs not knowing how to categorize these cars do allow people in otherwise difficult states for these cars (MA, CA, NJ, etc) to enjoy them. They pay a premium for them. I have personal experience of this too. I own a non-Federalized imported car (a Fiat) which has a CA BAR sticker on it for which I have several times been offered double what I paid simply because you cannot register/pass emissions with this type car in CA any more and that little plate on my car is now unobtainium. However, because mine has it then the only hope a CA resident has of driving one legally is to buy one with the BAR sticker. Mine is the only one in 6 years that has come up for sale globally with that qualification. Clearly that has value beyond what I ever expected. It never entered my head when I was buying but for a CA resident it makes a car incredibly valuable. I think we saw that with the recent BAT auction of the Zetec car. My theory anyway. So lets go back to the original question I have been looking at sevens off and on for a while now and this Caterham 480 caught my eye, https://vintageracecarsales.com/portfolio-view/2013-caterham-seven-480/ Wondering if anyone knows the history of this car? It appears to have been used in media reviews while at Hillbank then sold to the first owner in Wisconsin and acquired by Kim at vintage race car sales. Based on the weekly cars for sell in this thread, it looks to have been put up for sale more than 2 years ago and still hasn't sold. I assume it hasn't sold due to the high price but wasn't sure if it had a tarnished history. I see most Caterhams in the $30-40k range but with this one having the Duratec and being a newer build what would be a fair price for this car? Thanks. I'll lay out my logic for why I arrived at the value below. From what I got through my various conversations over the 2 odd years its been languishing for sale is that Kim has it on consignment and did not buy it outright. I have not talked with him directly on this particular car but he is a good guy to call and chat directly. I never heard any back stories about it. Having owned ex-press/media Caterhams, that is not a deal killer. They were usually driven hard and maintained well and had a good level of spec. All the problems are usually sorted and they are reliable. I am concerned it has sat for 2 years and possibly not been driven. These cars get unreliable when not driven. Hoses harden. Electrical faults creep in. Usually requires a period of time to fettle back into reliability. Not difficult but I believe it involves a value decrement for your time to make the car reliable again. Don't get distracted by the claim of paying $88k in 2013. The GB Pound was very high relative to the USD then. Since then the rate has dropped by a third which equates to $58K today. Probably about the price if you bought a similar spec 420R SV today based on the new ones quoted earlier. Spec is excellent - 235hp, dry sump, lowered floors, SV wide body. It is titled as a 1957 Lotus replica per ad description. I assume the title mentions "replica" but you should check what that does in your own state for title and registration. Not all states are automatically easy. Mentioning replica probably means it will not enjoy the BAT premium for conveniently titled CA cars. This is a big assumption that needs validation by a potential purchaser. One good think about BAT is they plot sale prices on charts so you can assess past values https://bringatrailer.com/lotus/seven/ It shows the recent Caterham zetec auction was an aberation compared with the rest of the data as we know. For S3 chassis Caterhams circa 1990s/2000s the price have trended slightly up from say $25K to $30K over time. There is not enough data for SV chassis but they get a premium (more scarce, more usable for people, more comfortable for touring, etc). Certainly nothing more recent in the 2010+ year range. If it has not sold at $49500 after 2 years then it is likely overvalued unless there is some really good backstory to support the length of time on sale or this is a dealer demo where the dealer is having too much fun or the owner is enjoying but really telling the wife "I am trying to sell it, really!" I get to a $40-45K range of value for this car in my head if it was me buying. Final value depends on what the title really says. At $45K you have to seriously consider a new Caterham and evaluate the numbers. Beachman Racing has a 420R SV in stock for build in July with a close enough spec it would be a valid comparison to this 2013 SV for sale. All my humble views - feel free to disagree. Edited July 3, 2020 by Croc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Coupla additional thoughts. This car was assembled by Hilllbank. They offered Jamie Kitman, of Automobile Magazine, a loaner to test. It broke down numerous times due to shoddy assembly. And this was the car they were confidant enough in to lend to a journalist. Given their track record, I'd be leery of anything they built. OK to buy, just be aware that some sorting and fettling may be required initially. And speaking of "built", the 310S SV for sale by Beachman that you reference Croc, is $43.5K, turnkey (assembled, and engine and transmission both included in that $43.5K). See their thread here titled "FS:New 2019 Caterham 310S....". Which I consider pretty amazing, given the long history of hyper-inflated cost of new Caterhams. It used be the kit was mid-high 40's and the engine, tranny, and assembly added $20K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 And speaking of "built", the 310S SV for sale by Beachman that you reference Croc, is $43.5K, turnkey (assembled, and engine and transmission both included in that $43.5K). Wow - did not realize was built. Thats exceptional price for a turnkey Caterham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCh Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 The 310SV (sale thread here) is a great deal. I'm surprised it's still available. Having visited Bruce's shop and seen the quality of his work up close, I wouldn't hesitate to pay a premium for a car he's finished, but at $43.5k, it's hard to view that asking price as anything but discounted. The 310 is also an interesting model. Although it doesn't have the big power and torque potential of a Duratec, from what I've read, it has a weight advantage that should make the handling even sweeter. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayentaskier Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Mike, Just a minor correction ... when I contacted Kim about the car in August 2019 he told me he owned the car outright, i.e., it was not a consignment. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 3, 2020 Author Share Posted July 3, 2020 Thanks for clarifying Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatsunRBZ Posted July 3, 2020 Share Posted July 3, 2020 Thanks for all the input, it is exactly what I was looking for. I had heard the rumors of Hillbank assembly leaving more to be desired in the early days and figured this was one of their early cars. However it sounds like this could be a quality car but just needs a thorough inspection before any purchase. I spoke with Kim about the car a few weeks ago and he was extremely helpful and seemed to give his full knowledge of the car. I believe he actually owns the car now based on our conversation. I was unaware that a new build could be that reasonably priced now days and will definitely have to explore that option more. I was looking for car to do spirited driving, local auto-x, and track days at Summit Point but sounds like the 310 might be a little low on power for the track days. I have also seen advertised a Stalker M-spec for sale locally that I believe was their prototype car. I know that car was pushed pretty hard at the track and auto-x events which in my opinion doesn't seem to be reflected in it's price. Sounds like I have some more researching to do but I appreciate the help and will continue to monitor Croc's weekly findings and forum classifieds. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoPho Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 The recent BAT auction car has certainly confused values. $45,500 for a 2001 Zetec S3 with only fairly basic options and modest circa 140hp, albeit in very nice condition, is extraordinary. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/ze...seven-5-speed/ It does not make sense when you can buy a new Caterham 420R (210hp) kit at its basic level from $48k (refer Caterham USA website) or a new Caterham 310SV kit with better spec and more hp here (including powertrain) for $42K http://www.beachmanracing.com/inventory Add $5k for assembly and you are wheelspinning down the road. I think the differentiation for value was its title in CA as a 1967 Lotus 7. Cars with more 'flexible' titling from the past days of DMVs not knowing how to categorize these cars do allow people in otherwise difficult states for these cars (MA, CA, NJ, etc) to enjoy them. They pay a premium for them. I have personal experience of this too. I own a non-Federalized imported car (a Fiat) which has a CA BAR sticker on it for which I have several times been offered double what I paid simply because you cannot register/pass emissions with this type car in CA any more and that little plate on my car is now unobtainium. However, because mine has it then the only hope a CA resident has of driving one legally is to buy one with the BAR sticker. Mine is the only one in 6 years that has come up for sale globally with that qualification. Clearly that has value beyond what I ever expected. It never entered my head when I was buying but for a CA resident it makes a car incredibly valuable. I think we saw that with the recent BAT auction of the Zetec car. My theory anyway. Paying some premium for the ability to register in CA is one thing, but bumping the bidding from $25k to $40k in one go, days before the auction heated up was a bit curious. It's possible with the two guys wanting it so bad the price would have gotten there anyway but that was a bit silly strategy. At that price, I would have sold them my car, which is a lot better spec and has an CA SB100 exemption. Studio lighting hides a lot of cosmetic flaws too. Having dipped my toe in the classic Mini waters fairly recently, I am not so sure the 67 Lotus registration is as valuable as one might think. What I learned with the Minis was that there were a lot of later year models that were dubiously registered as pre 68 to get into CA and while you can get away with it initially, the changing of ownership would sometimes get flagged and cause problems as the inspections made it obvious the car wasn't period (i.e. a 68 Mini didn't have fuel injection, nor does a 67 Lotus 7). The new owner may get lucky or may find they are dealing with the SB100 process anyway > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 Paying some premium for the ability to register in CA is one thing, but bumping the bidding from $25k to $40k in one go, days before the auction heated up was a bit curious. It's possible with the two guys wanting it so bad the price would have gotten there anyway but that was a bit silly strategy. You raise all very good points. I had forgotten about the sudden jump two days in on a 7 day auction. That may have been a bid strategy that went wrong - or just silly as you observe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 4, 2020 Author Share Posted July 4, 2020 I was unaware that a new build could be that reasonably priced now days and will definitely have to explore that option more. I was looking for car to do spirited driving, local auto-x, and track days at Summit Point but sounds like the 310 might be a little low on power for the track days. I think your problem is going to be you have divergent purposes. The 310 would be ideal for auto-x and backroads driving. The Sigma engine is lighter than a Duratec and is rev happy. Nice bark to its exhaust too. The track day is a different challenge. Summit Point is a neat track. Nicely twisty but for the straight which is fairly long. I think that straight may do you in, despite having a high speed kink part way along. An illustration of the challenge - same Caterham 310, same driver, one day apart, on two very different tracks: Silverstone UK (GP layout) and Donington UK (GP layout that day) I am yawning at Silverstone and watching the world go by. By contrast, Donington shows the car at its best, nimble, in the power band, able to pass cars. I think Summit Point is more open than Donington and so you would be low on hp with a 310R and get frustrated. There are engine upgrade packages from the 310 if you went to Premier Power and threw money at the problem to get up to 220hp. http://premierpowerengines.com/ However, if you are doing this then you would likely be better off just spec'ing a 420 and getting 210hp as standard in a Duratec engine with all the torque benefits that come along with that. Probably cheaper to buy it upfront than upgrading. It also gives you a clear upgrade path to go higher hp if you get bored down the track. That level of hp would allow you to hang on better down the straight and be right there with then at the turn 1 braking zone. Gets you from 110mph top speed to 120mph on your track. A 420R is a really good blend for track and road. Enough to hang on in most tracks but not too powerful for road. A 420R has done a 2min43 at Spa lap record - thats Porsche 911 GT3 RS territory so they can be incredibly quick on tracks that are traditionally considered power circuits. One thing as you think through these options, you will want to upgrade to (1) 13 inch wheels for autocross and track days - increases responsiveness and handling feel and (2) you will want an aeroscreen as the windscreen is a windbrake at speed. They are easy to change over in minutes if you have the captive nut brackets installed. My view but trying to give you data points for comparison as you think this through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted July 4, 2020 Share Posted July 4, 2020 (edited) Datsun: I'd say that if you are fairly new to track days, then the 310 might be the perfect learning tool. It will force you to concentrate on maintaining momentum by being extremely precise with braking points, finding the best racing line, etc. And it will not punish you instantly if you overdo it with the throttle. The softer suspension will allow curb climbing, as will the thicker sidewalls of the 14" tires. The 420 is a big step up as a track car, as Croc notes, and as I can attest to, having tried in vain to hang with them in my SVT Zetec Caterham. And the M-Spec Stalker is a huge bump up from the 420. It's really not a beginner's car. Edited July 4, 2020 by Kitcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 5, 2020 Author Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) Calling Kitcat - I think the last listing in Canada is your old crossflow? NEW None REPEATS Lotus 7 S2 https://www.fantasyjunction.com/inventory/1964-lotus-super-7-series-2/overview Lotus 7 S2 http://www.motorcarcompany.com/1963-lotus-seven.html and here https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/lotus/super-seven/2409828.html Lotus 7 S2 http://thesmiekelcollection.com/1967-lotus-super-seven/ Lotus 7A https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/lotus/7a/2388210.html Mitsuoka Zero https://www.duncanimports.com/used/Mitsuoka/1994-Mitsuoka-Zero1-cb265bd50a0e08b907465681642548f8.htm Stalker https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Replica-Kit-Makes-Brunton-Stalker/303603879185?hash=item46b0338d11:g:FwsAAOSw4dxeD8lq Lotus 7 S2 http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/lotus/1583269377/1583269377ss.htm Stalker http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/lotus/1437589044/1437589044ss.htm Caterham https://vintageracecarsales.com/portfolio-view/2013-caterham-seven-480/ Lotus 7 S2 https://vintageracecarsales.com/portfolio-view/lotus-7-america-vintage-race-car/ Caterham https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/caterham/unspecified/2403703.html Caterham http://britauto.com/portfolio-view/201216-nos-caterham-sv-roadsport/ Caterham http://britauto.com/portfolio-view/2000-caterham/ Wharton 7 https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1299993/1978-lotus-seven-for-sale-in-cadillac-michigan-49601 Birkin https://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/cto/d/los-angeles-birkin-s3-lotus-7/7136532959.html Stalker https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/d/frisco-lotus-super-seven-brunton-super/7137320865.html Stalker https://boston.craigslist.org/sob/cto/d/north-kingstown-lotus-super-7-replica/7144405186.html Maxton https://denver.craigslist.org/ctd/d/longmont-1992-maxton-rollerskate-for/7141407958.html Westfield https://nmi.craigslist.org/cto/d/traverse-city-westfield-speed-sport-1800/7152504660.html CANADA Dutton 7 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/barrie/lotus-7-spec-dutton/1509455253 Replica v8 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/oshawa-durham-region/fast-and-fun/1507773740 Birkin https://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/calgary/fs:-birkin-s3-super-seven-1700cc-ford-kent-twin-weber-rocket/1505046257 Mcc 7 Project https://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/mississauga-peel-region/mcc-7/1432118799 Locost 7 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/mississauga-peel-region/lotus-7-clone-locost-mcc7/1508864078 Locost 7 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/city-of-toronto/lotus-7-replica/1508403000 Locost 7 https://www.kijiji.ca/v-classic-cars/portage-la-prairie/lotus-supper-seven/1510217779 Caterham https://7cars.ca/cars-for-sale/super-sprint.htm Edited July 5, 2020 by Croc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Thx Croc, yes that is the ex-Kitcat Seven! MANY great memories! And one of the prettiest Caterhams ever, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 5, 2020 Author Share Posted July 5, 2020 Thx Croc, yes that is the ex-Kitcat Seven! MANY great memories! And one of the prettiest Caterhams ever, IMHO. Ten years ago, almost to the day, it was here at NJMP being driven by "The Enema" Coming through the bowl at Lightning Circuit at NJMP. Front: Kitcat Middle: Michael D (now owned by Carl B) Back: Me In the esses - turns 3 and 4 on the Lightning Circuit at NJMP. Being chased by Scott Lentz (RIP - we miss you good buddy) The first sevens event at NJMP group photo Left to Right: Karl (Blubarisax), Stewart (Sabbot) (well his Caterham anyway...not sure where he was), Tom (Yellowss7), Me, Dave D (DaveD), Steve (S1Steve), Mike (Kitcat), Michael D, Scott A very pretty car. One of the best color schemes on a seven that I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 5, 2020 Author Share Posted July 5, 2020 (edited) Or go back a year before that to LOG Gettysburg Here with my old SVT Zetec (now owned by Jude in Alaska) - Caterhams touring the Civil War battlefields. Edited July 5, 2020 by Croc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 Thx Croc, great pix, great memories. One of my all-time fav se7en memories was at that LOG event, 10 years ago? I got propositioned in the parking lot the night before the LOG trackday event. A comely young woman insisted on helping me put the car cover on my seven. I said thx, I needed your help, and she said something like:"Honey, I am just what you need:)!" And she was not subtle. I again thanked her and walked into the motel and called my wife and said: "you wont believe what just happened:)!". Such is the power of the se7en! One of those unforgettable moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowss7 Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 Mike and Mike. That event was epic. Starting with Croc leading us 7s on a wild escape over hills and fields back to the hotel. And where I first met kitcat on the autox course helping to fix some loose front a arms. Then his hotel parking lot encounter, which had a lot more detail in the telling at the time. The track day at summit point and kitcat getting caught in a downpour on the way either home or to summit point. I’m a bit fuzzy on that. Ah the good old days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wemtd Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 Wow! Thanks for a recap of the past 10+ years. That add should include a warning that with one ride you’ll be hooked and soon acquiring your own seven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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