Vovchandr Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Am I missing something about the 7 on BAT to justify the price? Croc is it the color? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anker Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Too many bidders with too much money and not enough knowledge about what they are bidding on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 Anker is correct, to my mind. You could buy a new Caterham 420R for that money. I’m still confused what engine spec that car had? Inferred as a Cosworth but never got an answer to that question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee break Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 You could look at the price as the "Buy it now" on Ebay............ :auto: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 Yeah but you wouldn't have it TODAY. Time is money for some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCh Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Fair point, but that was a significant premium. As Croc notes, the new price for a 420R SV is less. As a data point, Beachman Racing recently had a 420R SV listed on their site as ready to ship for under $49k. There are always people willing to overpay for immediate gratification or for a very specific color, but it's rare these kind of outlier prices reset the market. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 As a data point, Beachman Racing recently had a 420R SV listed on their site as ready to ship for under $49k. -John That was a kit, not a car. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCh Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Price what Bruce Beachman charges to build a car. I think you'll find it's surprisingly reasonable. Even the factory only charges 2395 GBP (~ $3170) for that option. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Bruce quoted me $7k to assemble a 420R. That's reasonable, but it's not nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCh Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 My information must have been incorrect, I heard a different number about a year ago. Regardless, having seen the quality of Brue's work firsthand, it is as you note, a reasonable fee. I don't think we are going to change each others mind. Clearly there were two people who really wanted that car, but I remain surprised by the final price of $63k with buyer's fee. -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Yeah I'm not saying i would pay that much, just that I'm not surprised someone would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmustang Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) Anker is correct, to my mind. You could buy a new Caterham 420R for that money. I’m still confused what engine spec that car had? Inferred as a Cosworth but never got an answer to that question. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, as someone who has been going to, and buying at the live, in person auctions for a 1/4 of a century or more (Mark IV and Skip can attest to this ), an auction result does not automatically reset the entire market, nor does it "make the market". In the case of an auction, you have at least two people (hopefully, unless there are underhanded things going on in the background similar to the 308 fiasco of the late 80's) who want a specific car, add in a little consumables, or an ego issue, and you get record pricing for the sale of a car. Again, this is a live auction atmosphere, not a classified advertisement online, but live action, where mitigating factors come in to play. What we see afterwards, and the Black and red car in the classifieds is the perfect example (no offense to the seller, it's a beautiful car), is a seller now viewing the auction results and saying "well if that car sold for XXXX, then my car is worth XXXXX, watching the $9,000 bump in asking price yesterday shows this to be true. We, who have been around the longest online, call this "The Barrett Jackson Syndrome", there are hundreds if not thousands of such examples of a bump in price online, usually you see it on craigslist type adds, or higher buy it now or opening prices on ebay, before they trickle down to the forums as the sellers now "test the new market" as they see it. Of course the flip side is, someone who sees the auction says "I better jump in and buy now before the prices skyrocket" as a knee-jerk reaction....Yet those folks are far and few between, in fact, with specialty forums like this, are almost non existent these days, as we are enthusiasts first, and most do not view their cars as an investment, but a toy to use as they see fit. Just my two cents worth this morning. Bill S. Edited November 19, 2020 by mrmustang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 Hypothetical - buy the 420R spec roller kit, add in the build fee, taxes and allow for shipping (to East Coast since I know that number) and you get a completed car at around $61K that is more recent than a 2014 kit (built 2017) and higher spec than the car auctioned (inclusive of buyer premium) costing $63k. For an apples to apples comparison, we should add shipping on to the auction car at $1500 and the differential increases to $3500 area in favor of the new 420R roller kit. Some people would not blink at that price differential and others will choke. Some people want it now and others are prepared to wait. Thats your basic evaluation a buyer would be making. The only thing that would swing the choice beyond that is color preference and for that no amount of money is going to swing it with some buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 (edited) Bill: I would agree with you if this 360 price were aberrant. But a review of the BAT prices for Caterhams in the last 6 months, maybe longer, shows that auctions have almost consistently resulted in LARGE premiums, over previously established market values. A recent BAT sale to a new member here involved a late 90's spec X-flow Caterham for nearly what a new, fully assembled, engine installed, turnkey SV 310R, could be purchased for from Beachman Racing. My hunch is that BAT has provided a national buying audience to what were previously little known Caterham sales mostly on Craigslist, here, Hemmings, and as you note, at exotic car auctions. I think the knowledgeable comments, sometimes in the hundreds, mostly from enthusiastic owners espousing the car's wonderfulness have contributed to a greater appreciation for car's strengths and weaknesses. It used to be there was a Road and Track article ever few years about Caterhams. Now there are repeated testimonials on BAT, on a nearly monthly basis, stoking enthusiasm for the amazing se7en experience. Probably doesn't hurt that everyone is stuck inside due to Covid and is fantasizing about their next car:). Edited November 19, 2020 by Kitcat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted November 19, 2020 Share Posted November 19, 2020 Bill: I would agree with you if this 360 price were aberrant. But a review of the BAT prices for Caterhams in the last 6 months, maybe longer, shows that auctions have almost consistently resulted in LARGE premiums, over previously established market values. A recent BAT sale to a new member here involved a late 90's spec X-flow Caterham for nearly what a new, fully assembled, engine installed, turnkey SV 310R, could be purchased for from Beachman Racing. My hunch is that BAT has provided a national buying audience to what were previously little known Caterham sales mostly on Craigslist, here, Hemmings, and as you note, at exotic car auctions. I think the knowledgeable comments, sometimes in the hundreds, mostly from enthusiastic owners espousing the car's wonderfulness have contributed to a greater appreciation for car's strengths and weaknesses. It used to be there was a Road and Track article ever few years about Caterhams. Now there are repeated testimonials on BAT, on a nearly monthly basis, stoking enthusiasm for the amazing se7en experience. Probably doesn't hurt that everyone is stuck inside due to Covid and is fantasizing about their next car:). One thing I'd like to add, without referencing any sale in particular, but a 7 that is already registered makes life a lot easier in many states to transfer registration into than starting from square 1, and that alone can carry a premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmustang Posted November 20, 2020 Share Posted November 20, 2020 Bill: I would agree with you if this 360 price were aberrant. But a review of the BAT prices for Caterhams in the last 6 months, maybe longer, shows that auctions have almost consistently resulted in LARGE premiums, over previously established market values. A recent BAT sale to a new member here involved a late 90's spec X-flow Caterham for nearly what a new, fully assembled, engine installed, turnkey SV 310R, could be purchased for from Beachman Racing. My hunch is that BAT has provided a national buying audience to what were previously little known Caterham sales mostly on Craigslist, here, Hemmings, and as you note, at exotic car auctions. I think the knowledgeable comments, sometimes in the hundreds, mostly from enthusiastic owners espousing the car's wonderfulness have contributed to a greater appreciation for car's strengths and weaknesses. It used to be there was a Road and Track article ever few years about Caterhams. Now there are repeated testimonials on BAT, on a nearly monthly basis, stoking enthusiasm for the amazing se7en experience. Probably doesn't hurt that everyone is stuck inside due to Covid and is fantasizing about their next car:). No argument there at all, but it still is not a maker of the market as a whole, unless your entire market is now BAT. I'll continue to collect the data as I have for years......When I'm ready, another 7 will be in the garage, and more than likely, by spring, be it a Caterham, Birkin, or ???? One thing I'd like to add, without referencing any sale in particular, but a 7 that is already registered makes life a lot easier in many states to transfer registration into than starting from square 1, and that alone can carry a premium. As a keeper of many Cobra replicas, I can tell you that the flip side is the same, how it is titled can cause high asking price based on the assumption of ease of retitle and registration (California excluded), or could be a detriment, causing a decrease in the price (older PA kit car title without a year and a big RECONSTRUCTED listed on them). Again, Rick (aka: Mark IV) can attest to this if asked....... No harm, no foul, everyone earns there money differently, everyone spends their money differently, everyone views the cars differently.....It's all good any way you look at it as long as you enjoy it for what it is. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 (edited) NEW Stalker - back again after a long absence https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/lotus/7/2167534.html Lotus 7 - back again after a long absence https://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Other-Makes/154205189050?hash=item23e75873ba:g:5qcAAOSwlOJfuI5m Lotus 7 S4 project https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/cto/d/hereford-lotus-s4-seven-project-car/7232085841.html REPEATS Birkin https://www.wirewheel.com/inventory/available/2015-birkin-s3-for-sale/ Lotus 7 S2 https://thesmiekelcollection.com/1967-lotus-super-seven/ Caterham http://rockymountaincaterham.com/inventory/ Caterham http://www.beachmanracing.com/inventory Mitsuoka https://www.duncanimports.com/vehicles/547/1994-mitsuoka-zero1-roadster Lotus 7 S2 http://www.motorcarcompany.com/1963-lotus-seven-s2-1500-cosworth-2dr-roadster-for-sale-at-motor-car-company-in-california.html and here https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/lotus/super-seven/2409828.html Replica https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1382221/1979-lotus-seven-for-sale-in-arvada-colorado-80005 Wharton 7 https://classiccars.com/listings/view/1299993/1978-lotus-seven-for-sale-in-cadillac-michigan-49601 Caterham https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dealer/lotus/caterham/2416012.html Diva 7 https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/d/prescott-diva-roadster-1962-lotus/7232431342.html Caterham https://charleston.craigslist.org/cto/d/charleston-lotus-caterham-seven/7225779452.html Birkin https://fortcollins.craigslist.org/cto/d/fort-collins-birkin-s3-super-lotus/7219759246.html Stalker http://www.race-cars.com/carsales/lotus/1437589044/1437589044ss.htm CANADA Sorry no ads as kijiji site was down this morning. Edited November 22, 2020 by Croc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanderGA Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Too many bidders with too much money and not enough knowledge about what they are bidding on! We've seen people pay a big premium on BaT recently and then make posts here that reflect that they didn't know what they bought. I might be one of those people but any premium I paid pales when compared to what some others have paid. Clearly, BaT is seeing a bull market. Good for them and the rest of us. The buyers on BaT, yours truly included, are lured in by the ease of finding a car we always wanted but never would have searched out. If you offer goods with a limited supply to a newly expanded market prices go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcarguy Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 (edited) NEW Stalker - back again after a long absence https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/lotus/7/2167534.html Seen this car before. Nice build. Not sure, but I think Scott Minehart may have built this at Stalker Auto; not a 100% on this. Been running in the Stalker circle for many years now and this is the only example of this particular Stalker (known as a Classic R) that I’ve seen personally where Stalker Auto combined the looks of the classic (legacy) chassis with inboard shocks (front and rear) and IRS with the CTS-V Getrag diff. A final thought. This car is running a larger Wilwood brake kit than my car (for comparison) along with. 17x9 wheel. Not sure how well a smaller (15” or....) wheel would fit if one wanted to track the car. Research that if you’re a serious buyer with HPDE or auto cross in mind. Edited November 22, 2020 by xcarguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted November 24, 2020 Author Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) Caterham https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1967-lotus-seven-2/ Edited November 24, 2020 by Croc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now